It’s me again, the guy with the windows not installed per mfg. instructions.
Anyway, my drywall is done and I am ready for painting. Come to the house today, after some hard rain, to find water coming in 3 places. I know diddly-squat about the industry. But how often does this happen? Can all the subs do things right, and still have this happen? Dumb question, I know, but enlighten me.
BTW, none of the leaks happened due to the window installation.
Listeners write in about fostering trade work and proposed changes to Canadian code and ask questions about roof and wall insulation for an old house.
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Replies
The average carpenter is, unfortunately, pretty average. If you hire subs and blindly trust their abilities you'll be disapointed. You either need to hire established guys that are known to do high quality work, or go with those with good warrantees.
We build leak-free houses as the norm.
"none of the leaks happened due to the window installation."
So, these are roof leaks???
This is a house being newly built??
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
Newly built house-the design is custom, and the GC is a custom builder. The regular framing crew wasn't available to him, so he got another, which was highly recommended by the supply house.These guys are good. They also assembled my SIP panels really well. It was their first time, and they did it in the freezing cold. The only area of complaint that I have is in the Tyvek sheathing. It just didn't measure up to the rest of their work. There are rips and areas that didn't overlap properly.See my post on the roof design.
only area of complaint that I have is in the Tyvek sheathing. It just didn't measure up
LoL! Use the Search function here, and put Tyvek in. You will likely have to use some sort of date/time limits, as it is a tooic much heated, and for the very reason you cite.
Now, to be a bit picky, Tyvek is a housewrap, not a sheathing. It's alleged purpose is as an infiltration barrier. Tyvek™ is generally held to be permeable to water vapor (if I remember the product info rightly)--so it is not a vapor barrier, even if installed that way.
The original reason to choose tyvek over felt was that a person could "wrap" an entire house elevation in one "go" with a hard-to-tear material that saved some labor hours in reducing air infiltration (which requires taping of joints & other rather-specific installation details). Somewhere along the line, the big tract builders started using the stuff as if it were a miracle of waterproofing. The people who learned their trade OTJ with those builders carry those learned habits into the rest of the biz, with results both better and worse.
On the whole, I prefer felt paper, both as something to specify, and as something to actually install. (Dirty little secret: It takes as many tacks to set Tyvek as felt, it's just fewer "orbits" around the house using a 12' wide roll as four 3' rolls.)
With SIP construction, I really feel like felt better combines with some of the more finicky details where the panels join, too.
But, that's jsut my opinion, others differ.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
That's real bad. I assume you're talking about roof leaks, because rain coming through siding + vapor barrier + sheathing + insulation + drywall would be hard to imagine.
Do you have a complicated roof design?
zak
"so it goes"
I think it's a complicated roof design. I don't have the outer finish on yet. But I assume at this point it should be watertight.
Yeah, I can see about a dozen places where roof leaks could happen, if things weren't exactly right.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
You say a dozen places? Interesting. About the only feature of interest are a "dozen" or so valleys, and maybe two blind valleys (not sure from teh picture). Good Lord, though, if a valley is a problem . . .
Note that if you don't have the siding on yet you could get some leakage at the point where the roof meets the wall, due to lack of coverage of the tin shingles.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
But I assume at this point it should be watertight.
Well, technically that would be true only when all of the flashing is installed, and all of the weatherproof membrane is down.
The purpose of shingles & siding is to protect the actual w/p plane, not to be that plane (in the pedantic, precise, school-definition of such things). Come to cases, you can put 15 & 30# felt over a cardboard box and it will be weatherproof--if you pay attention to the installation details.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
A local realtor (with approx. 30 years in industry) that uses my services claims "All houses in Nova Scotia leak somewhere!!". I have my own report system with appendices in which I stress in the moisture section that water is the worst destroyer of building value in Canada. I begin that section with his quote!!
An architecture firm in California wrote a 200+ page book on installing windows and doors. This is not a simple topic!
We have wind driven horizontal rain here. The national window standard allows windows to be water leakage tested at 7 different indoor-outdoor pressure differentials from 100 pa. to 700 pa. These pressures represent winds from 28-77 mph. I always tell people to buy the window with the best/highest rating. But this is just for water leakage through the window frame/sash/seals and has nothing to do with installation techniques.
From what I see driving around my area, no local builders will construct a house for me unless I'm onsite fulltime. Their window installation techniques do not even come close to the architects details for wood framed buildings!!! The extra cost to do the better installation would be $15-20 per unit. My house would cost $300 more....not much for a leak free installation.
"An architecture firm in California wrote a 200+ page book on installing windows and doors. This is not a simple topic!"Do you happen to remember the title? I'm interested in reading it.
Company Name: DTA, Inc., 495 Miller Ave., Mill Valley, CA 94941 (this may be old and stale now as I read and copied the article in 97-98)
Document name: "Nail-On Windows: Installation and Flashing Procedures for Windows and Sliding Glass Doors" ; 228 pages
IIRC there is a detailed window installation information from a "window assocation".And there are training classes.I have the classes mentioned over in the BS section of the JLC forums.
Dumb question, I know, but enlighten me.
Enlighten us instead, where is the water coming in?
How much?
Joe H
One area was the solar tube. I think that was fixed. The second area is a corner of the house, where it transition from 2 to 1 story. Because of the roof layout at this location, there is a lot of water flow along where the roof meets the wall. See my rendering-Third is a mystery to me. Water was dripping out of a J-box on an exterior wall. Again an area that transitions from 2 to 1 story.In these areas, we are talking about steady dripping. Enough to make 1 or 2 feet diameter stains and some standing water.
That valley/wall intersection is exactly where I thought it might be leaking. That spot needs some great flashing work to stay leak free, and if the final siding/roofing isn't on yet, you're probably asking too much. If the flashing is still exposed there, I'd go take some pictures of it, and inspect it closely. Post a picture on here, if you can get one that shows what's going on.zak
"so it goes"
That spot needs some great flashing work to stay leak free
And, often, multiple flashing, in less-than obvious ways, too.
Like ICW up from the roof onto the upstairs wall. And down the wall over that. Then some metal flashing. All before step flashing the shingles . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Yeah, I was going to go into more detail, but then I started thinking about how many layers it would have to be, and how the complex corner of the half-blind valley to wall intersection would go. I don't think I could explain it, and I get the feeling that it would take me a few tries to do it right, too.zak
"so it goes"
look like one of those conflicte roofs with half-azzed attempts to deal with dead valeys. Designers need to learn that gravity works and water flows downhill
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Yes, that is what I though might be a blind valley. And if water runs down teh roof and comes close to a wall like that, you sure need teh flashing done correctly.
Are getting a bit worried about this house? I would not be feeling good about the builder right now. Windows? Roof? Are there holes in your water pipes? Are there shorts in you electric? Do you bathroom fans vent into the attic? Are all teh drain lines connected to a real drain or just empty into the basement?
Kidding I suppose, but man, you can't be pleased.
HA HA HA...I'd be laughing much harder if it weren't my house...
Not trying to be funny. I would be pisssed. I suppose I should make sure you are clear here. Is teh roof on or just tar paper?
If just the paper, I would think you might not have as big of a problem. I think it is pretty tough to get a good seal with flashing and tar paper alone. Shoulb be pretty good, but a lot of water is in valleys and that could overwhelm teh paper.
Great time to really look at the flashing details.
I can't get a good idea from this picture. Is the valley with the red straight all the way down or does it jog around the corner of the main house?How did this valley/house intersection get flashed? Is the leak at the bottom of the valley or midway down?
Lemme get back to you when I got some pics.
No leaks, no concrete cracks, no sheetrock cracks in our two year old home.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." Voltaire