As many of you are aware, I’m trying to get a little business off the ground. My intention is to do handyman-type stuff, and things like California closets, bathroom remodels, and kitchen cabinet installation.
I feel kinda funny, though, because my first leads (so far) have been for projects more complicated than I intended. One person inquired about a steam shower, and asked if I was a licensed plumber. I could only reply that I would have to call in a licensed plumber for something like that, and she didn’t altogether pleased. I think she saw markup, and she’d be right.
This comes right on the heels of someone in the kitchen and bath biz telling me, yesterday, that I should look into apprenticing as a plumber. He has a point. In Burlington, less than an hour from here, there is a goldmine in the form of MANY expensive houses with
bathrooms and interior fixtures. Those white-collar rich folks want to see plumbers setting their toilets, not handy-men (even though my insurance company would be OK with toilets and sinks).
I think about my former employers, who lost their K&B business after 22 years, and some other folks I know who quit after 10. They’ve all got nothing specific to do; the one guy is working at the casino, the other is headed up to the Yukon.
If I got my plumbing ticket, I’d actually be trained in something, and I’d have a permanent, marketable skill-set, no matter what I did with it. Right now, I’ve got nothing to fall back on. I don’t even have a background in an unlicensed trade, like tile or whatever, that could see me through. Like, nothing that I’ve every day for multiple years.
I figured I was a little old for an apprenticeship at 27. I’d be done when I was 32. I see plumbers with 16 year old apprentices, and it’s demoralizing.
I’ve got a hell of a lot on my mind right now. I drifted onto this path without a real plan; I liked my job and would have preferred to keep it. It’s so tough to know what to do. Any wisdom you guys can impart from your experiences would be great.
Edited 1/10/2008 11:09 am ET by Biff_Loman
Edited 1/10/2008 11:10 am ET by Biff_Loman
Replies
Starting out 30 years ago, I made it a goal to learn every trade I could, every chance I got. Still don't know plumbing worth beans! In retrospect, my view now is that the most important hat you'll wear, if you're serious about being a successful contractor, is that of Business Manager. Lots of good tradesmen out there working for wages.
The successful business owners are first and foremost good businessmen. That's where I'd put my efforts if I were you - i.e. sales, advertising, financial planning, personnel management, money management, bookeeping, etc. Respect the trades and those who have mastered them, of course, but put your personal efforts into management skills. If that's your goal.
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Those are encouraging words, Huck. Very similar thoughts have run through my head, but I think I let myself get rattled, today.
one day i was framing an addition in my yute and said to myself lookie at dem plumbers they got it real easy, Well the waste pipe broke and 2 went down into the crawl space for an hour, when they came back up they were covered with brown looking mud, Spider webs, and rat droppings, I never gave plumbing another thought after that.
I'd be surprised if a plumber looking for an apprentice wouldn't jump at the chance to hire someone who was more reliable and savvy than some teenager. If it wuz me (and it ain't) I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
just my 2 cents, but do you want to be a plumber? if you want to be a plumber then yeah go for it.
2nd question: what do you want to be a master of? you know how the saying goes. Plumbers make good money and from what you are saying you seem to feel that there is a lot of work for you to make money in that area. But Dude - do what you love. If you love plumbing go for it. If you want to be the jack of all trades guy that's fine. alot of guys our there do that and I think some do pretty good at it.
Personally I would try to market myself as the guy to gets the job done. How you get it done is up to you. Instead of saying you would have to call in someone for something like that, where you make it sound like something that is beyond your scope of abilities and qualifications( whether it is or not) you saying something like "I have a guy who is great who will handle the plumbing" . notice the more positive tone to saying something like that. Now instead of giving the message that this too much for you and that you will have to calling a high priced plumber who is qualified to handle it for you. you are saying - Lady I got it covered, you are in good hands.
even if you are a small one man show, you can still come off sounding like a pro rather than a jack of all trades guy who can't handle the job.
on another note. if the customer is so worried about the cost of a mark up they might not be the best customers to work for. Unfortunately and I do realize they may be all you have going at the time.
the small bathroom and kitchen jobs my partner and I have done. we get the plumbers to do the plumbing and the electricians to the electrical. If it's something very minute, we'll take care of it, but not usually.
Thanks for the reply. This is good stuff.
Biff, I thought about it a bit more, and unless you actually plan on becoming a plumber, apprenticing for it is a waste of time. then next you'll be asking yourself if you should get your electricians ticket and so on.
Focus on your strong points and surround yourself with people you can depend on, which takes time and go from there. View Image View Image
Biff,
You failed to maximise your oppertunity.
she had an objection and your answer wasn't what she wanted to hear..
No big deal but learn from your experiance and move on..
Here's How I might have solved it in your shoes.
Oh, I'm sure I could do the job, but since that is not my area of expertese you would have the wrong man for the job. I have people capable of doing a very professional job who are licensed to do such things and by using them you won't run any risks of failure..
I'll still supervise them and ensure a good job is done preoperly and affordably..
What that answer provides is a justified reason to use you and your services. Plus the leverage of using her fears to support your position..
takes more than a plumber and a good line of sales BS to build a steam shower.
might not a been a good job to BS his way thru.
and this, coming from a guy who's BS'd his way thru more than one job.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Jeff,
If you've BS'd your way thru jobs in the past you will know that customers will always ask you to do the impossible for pennies and expect it done to perfection.
You may be a good carpenter and capable of doing some nice trim work but I'll bet that you have some limitations.
The steam shower most likely came with instructions and at a minimum came with the name of the manufacturer. A phone call should provide some information as to the special requirements..
I'll bet even a licenced plumber may not have any experiance doing that particular the job but as I said a phone call and review of the instructions should get someone thru it.
could be a stand alone "kit".
I've seen them in ads ... never in person.
only ones I've seem in person were custom built in tile shower/ steam showers.
Guess anyone could set a kit into place ... I was thinking along the lines of a traditional built in steam shower.
Hey OP ... what'd they ask for?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
What'd they want?She said: "We were thinking of, maybe, a steam shower in our master bath." Then she proceeded to interrogate me on steam showers. I felt I had to admit my ignorance, to which she replied: "Wait, you aren't a plumber?"She assumed that, since I was proposing to remodel her bathroom, I must be a licensed plumber. I thought I was there to price out a remove-and-replace deal in their basement bath: new vanity, toilet, and so on. Then she hit me with the steam shower business. Like I mentioned in my original post, this is one day after someone told me: "There's a goldmine in Burlington, but people there will expect you to be a licensed plumber. All our guys are either plumbers or in apprenticeship programs. You should seriously think about it."
Edited 1/10/2008 10:54 pm ET by Biff_Loman
So do YOU want to be a plumber? It could be your way to your own K&B business, or huge plumbing company. If the work is there, go get it. Service calls are a bit more messy than new construction, but money is there too. Could be a solid career move, if you are willing to learn.
I'll add that this is kind of a different mentality than the city in which I live, which is a blue-collar town at heart. A lot of people here will happily point out that so-and-so's cousin will do it for peanuts. When I was a project manager, one of my boss's main selling points was our cheap, non-licensed plumbing. He'd often point out the difference in price between what he'd charge and what a plumber would charge. Clients ate it up. He was actually offended that the insurance company took exception to that approach, pointing out that he'd never had a claim. Interesting.Here's the irony, though. I did manage licensed plumbers on a few occasions, and I was struck by their substandard workmanship: crooked risers, ugly solder joints in exposed locations, improperly installed plumbing trim - the list goes on. Our unlicensed guy had to clean up after the professionals on quite a number of occasions.
"I'll add that this is kind of a different mentality than the city in which I live, which is a blue-collar town at heart. A lot of people here will happily point out that so-and-so's cousin will do it for peanuts. "
btw ....
that's every other house on every other street in ever other neighborhood ...
in every city in the world.
Not just your part of town.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
well then ...
back up plan to plan "Get Licensed" ...
get hooked up with a licensed plumber as fast as possible.
if U don't have any leads ... I'd at least cold call a coupla plumbers ...
tell them yer a remodeling contractor in need of a plumber from time to time ...
and make a new friend.
then ... next time someone corners you ...
"No Mam, I am not the plumber. I will however call him in for a person look before we set a firm price."
here ... plumbing and electrical are inspected and licensed.
I can do a limited amount of both ... but I don't.
I rely on a licensed guy to do the job properly.
Most customers expect this going in.
some ... wanna low ball the job and skate thru with unpermitted work.
I don't like to risk my business to save some cheap sob a coupla bucks.
but then everyone would have to figure out what kinda steam shower she wanted!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
A steam shower is 40% carpenter, 50% tile setter and 10% plumber -- oh, and toss an electrician in for good measure. And the tricky parts are NOT the plumber. ;-)
Sounds like you just didn't know enough about steam showers -- not too little about how to do plumbing. The only thing a plumber would do for a steam shower that wouldn't be done in a normal shower is to hook up the steam generator. A plumber probably wouldn't/couldn't frame, seal and tile a steam shower. (He'd sub it out to a framer and a tile setter.) My guess is that you could know enough about steam showers after a couple hours in a library or on the internet to sell a HO on you ability to handle such a job.
In fact, since this has now come up as something your customers might want, you probably should have done this already so you don't get caught flatfooted the next time somebody asks. "Fool me once, . . . "
Most, if not all, the folks who replied to you are not plumbers. But I know for a fact that several of them could do a kick butt steam shower. And the HO would have never even thought to ask if they were a plumber because they would have been able to intelligently answer every question the HO came up with, and even suggest solutions to a few issues that the HO would never have thought of on her own.
I agree with the posts that say become an apprentice if you wanna be a plumber. But don't do it just so you can get more remodelling jobs, if that's your calling. What are you gonna do, get an electrician's license when somebody asks you about kitchen wiring? An engineer's license when somebody asks you about sizing a beam?
A good remodeller will hire licensed tradesmen/professionals to do what they are licensed to do but he must know enough about all their trades, not to be an expert, but to discuss ALL the components of a job, at least semi-intelligently, with a HO. That takes experience, reading a lot of of material covering ALL these trades, and observing/talking to the other trades.
If you decide to be a remodeling contractor, sounds like you have some homework to do to become a good generalist, as opposed to a specialist.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I was thinking exactly the same thing. Steam showers require every little detail to withstand time. Imagine the inside of a pressure cooker, but allow for a person to be inside and not get harmed. And have it last for 40 years or so.
If you want to apprentice in that trade, 27 is a great age to do it. I teach in a trade school.....we find a motivated, mature person in that age range (25 to 30) is often very successful, much more so than younger people. They have some life expereince, and a whole lot of years still in front of them. People older than that can also be very successful.
You had some good advice though; don't go into plumbing unless that's what you want to do. I wouldn't anyway. I'm a cabinetmaker, and a lifer; I cross into carpentry sometimes, and DIY some other trade stuff in my own home, but I have no desire to practice any other trade than my own.
if I had it to do over again ...
I'd start as either an electrician or plumber.
both are licensed in the state of PA ... carps are not.
I'd even direct my kids that way if they showed an interrest in building.
I have a strong background in remodeling ...
grew up working with my Dad, who was a FT K&B man on the side.
so the carp skills would always be there.
I'd rather have a license that seperated me from the crowd.
could always work on the carpentry side of the kitchens and baths as they came along.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Well, we certainly have some good arguments for and against. Thanks for all the input; I really appreciate it. For what it's worth, I'll mention that my father apprenticed as an electrician. He genuinely liked it, but three years after getting his ticket he was farming chickens. Now he owns a vineyard, and also bought a cabinet door making shop after canceling a proposed winery. Life takes you funny places.Adrian: it's good to hear that you don't think it's too late for me. I've been getting a real sense of urgency in the last twelve months, feeling like I wasted a lot of time trying to find myself after university. There's not a moment to be lost, in my opinion, no matter what I choose.Jeff: I had every intention of apprenticing as an electrician, but when the project management position came up, I couldn't resist. Yeah, I think it's excellent to be licensed in something.Huck: You're right, the business side of things is paramount. I did a small job today, and the materials cost slightly less than I expected. This gave me an incredible feeling of confidence.
I figured I was a little old for an apprenticeship at 27. I'd be done when I was 32.
I know a guy that left the packing plant that he worked at for 10-12 years to join the electrical apprenticeship program. I think he probably took a $5-$6 per hour pay cut to do so. Everybody at the packing plant made shid out of him for quitting. That's been maybe 15 years ago and he now runs some pretty big commercial jobs making $35+ per hour and all those guys at the packing plant(when it shut down) ended up moving on to other factory jobs in the neighborhood of $13-$17 per hour.
If you want to become a plumber then do so, who cares what your age is? BTW, how old will you be in 5 years if you don't apprentice!
Doug
"How old will you be in 5 years if you don't apprentice."Exactly.It would be my guess that a great many of those young apprentices don't show up when a shovel is involved in the project or it gets a bit messy.
With maturity and a goal in mind I'll bet you move up fast.
By the way I've actually seen a shovel make an apprentice plumber disappear during lunch break. LOL
I grew up on a farm. Rotting animal carcasses wouldn't make a dent in my work ethic.
You know, guys, I think I'm going to go for the apprenticeship route. I wouldn't have been so thrown off by the steam shower business if something wasn't brewing in my subconscious.A lot of guys in the biz have got something specialized under their belt. There is nothing, and I mean nothing, that I've done day-in and day-out on a professional basis. When it comes to sales, pricing, and installation, I'm faking-it-'til-I-make-it across the board. I think I'm biting off too much. If there was one element I had locked down, I could probably make it work, but I'm 100% winging this.I was almost overwhelmed by venting a client's hood fan through the roof, because it was a tricky scenario and I'd never tried one before. I dunno. It's too much on top of too much. Why plumbing? As far as I'm concerned, it's either plumbing or electrical. Two years ago, I was dead set on apprenticing as an electrician, but electrical doesn't mesh neatly with the kitchen and bath experience I've accumulated. So there ya go.Do I want to be plumber? I can't think of one reason why not. At this point in my life, that is more than good enough for me.
Edited 1/11/2008 1:17 pm ET by Biff_Loman
Do I want to be plumber? I can't think of one reason why not. At this point in my life, that is more than good enough for me.
There ya go! And if after you complete the apprenticeship program and you want to do something else there is no reason why you shouldn't/cant.
Personally I would have chosen electrician but those damn plumbers make the big money so ya got that going!
Doug
My background was in remodeling, where I usually tried to do it all or else not take the job because I did not have a network of subs to handle the items I was not familiar with. After that i began building spec's in which I needed multiple subs, I always expected good work, done when promised (Well, that part didnt always happen) I treated them well and paid them FAST. Now that I,m focusing mostly on remodeling again I have the confidence to accept much bigger & complex projects because I have this network of subs. I mark their bills up 10 %, on some jobs like small baths about all I do is demo, cabinets & trim. Sometimes I make more on my subs & materials markup than I do on labor. (I,m 95% solo) I do less physical work this way, but spend more time on management. Work on lining up subs & then you can take on more of what comes your way
Hmm. You have a good argument there. The thing is, in my last job I managed specialized subcontractors who did- plumbing
- electrical
- flooring
- closet wire shelf installations (no kidding!)
- cultured marble manufacture and installation
- drywall hanging and finishing
- drywall/plaster texture-matching specialist
- acrylic repair
- framing and misc. carpentry
- painting
- ordinary window installation
- stained-glass window installation (that was cool!)
- custom glass shower enclosures
- huge, fancy mirror installs
- finished carpentry
- cabinet and countertop installation
- granite and corian countertop manufacture and installationAll those are separate outfits. That's a darn lot of subs, considering this is all in the context of kitchen and bath remodeling. Note the lack of roofing, siding and so on. I know all these guys.
About twenty years ago I was working solo just starting out on my own remodeling kitchens and so forth and I had a hard time getting established plumbers to show up when they said they would and treat me like a real business so I went out and got trained (took classes and apprenticed my self to a plumber) and got my license. Turns out it's really interesting and fun work esp in new construction. Kind of like dungeons and dragons in 3-D. all sorts of unintuitive rules and intricate parts and really just a great way to make a living. Eventually I went back to building and became a building contractor. At 51 I'm thinking about going after an electrical license just to liven things up.
I say go for it, stretch your brain, it's a great skill to have in your mental toolbox.
Also, during my divorce ten years ago I was a mental basket case and no way could I sell myself as a builder or re modeler, but I was still able to make a decent living as a plumber and nobody cared if I didn't talk nice or look well rested, heck they were glad if I showed up on time and sober. Nice to have a fall back plan in your back pocket.
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"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Your experience hiring plumbing subs jives pretty well with the poor workmanship and unreliability I've experienced, consistently, with both licensed plumbers and electricians. It hurts, being a small outfit and having to kiss plumber azz for the privilege of having atrocious, ugly work done two days late.By the way, you strike me as a potential kindred spirit. I love doing things purely for interest's sake; curiosity was the primary reason I took my last job. I wanted to see what it was like being in charge, because I didn't feel that was something that came naturally to me. And it didn't, but I learned.Edited 1/10/2008 11:57 pm ET by Biff_Loman
Edited 1/10/2008 11:57 pm ET by Biff_Loman
Custom steam rooms are one of my company's specialties, and the truth is the tile setting and carpentry are probably the more complicated of the trades involved. steam lines are fairly straightforward to run. I started as an apprentice (actually a laborer) A few years ago with a small remodeling general contractor. I made it my mission from day one to learn as much as i could. Since we're small, and therefore don't sub out specialty trades, I have gotten a chance to learn pretty much every trade there is. I'm goin to be taking over the company when my boss retires in the next couple of years. I'm not quite "licensed" as a plumber, but i'm fully qualified to install a steam line and showerhead. On the other hand I wouldn't tackle plumbing project that are outside the scope of my skill set.
STUDY! Taunton Press puts out some of the best books on the trades.
Read: Running a Successful Construction Company I fully agree with David Gerstel, You have to know the trades to run a successful business.
"I'm goin to be taking over the company when my boss retires in the next couple of years."
Right there....there is a whole world of goldmines for smart young guys who get into good companies, with owners looking to retire and pass it on to someone who cares, in the next few years. I've never seen a time with such opportunities for peole that can take advantage of them.
Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
Your first thought was not bad--HandyMan--good ones that fix houses are in demand. As for plumbing and just getting started, plumbing repairs can keep you going very well. I bet if you were doing repairs and set up fairly good, you would not get much rest.