Young Amish logger near my home in N. West. Pa.
Ditch
Edited 8/7/2002 10:13:49 PM ET by luvditchburns
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Edited 8/7/2002 10:13:49 PM ET by luvditchburns
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Sorry for the size. Tried a bunch of times and couldn't get irfanview to reduce the size.
Ditch
Wow. That's a great photo. Got any more? Maybe the young feller in action?
Brinkmann for president in '04
Hey, those guys are stout. Couple years back had 10 acres timbered by Amish with a 36inch carbide saw blade. What a monster. Put the logs on sleds and dragged to the saw with a team of horses. Was watching one young guy from the house. He was rolling the logs onto the sled with that clamp on a pole tool and one log wouldn't roll right. Were talking 8 foot long, foot or so diameter, logs mind you. He drops the tool and bends over, bear hugs the thing and puts it on the sled. Short, young lean looking guy. Like something out of a movie. Actually I think I've seen that guy in the photo at country auctions before.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
Read somewhere (WSJ?) not too long back that the Amish cash flow from farms and woodlots beats the mechanized operater on a per acre basis. Of course, lots less food per acre and lots fewer acres logged per month.
Still an interesting statistic for cash flow, plus he looks like he's content. .
Most Amish I've met are pretty nice people. Ordinary folks actually. Read a funny news report in the local newspaper a while back. Seems a young group of Amish boys got drunk one night and stole the neighbors horse and carriage to take a joy ride. I had to laugh. Must be a universal teen thing regardless of social boundries.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
Earlier this year there was an independent movie released (in E. PA) about a custom the Amish have with their teenagers.
Apparently, they are set loose on the modern world and allowed to indulge themselves with the goal being that they will realize the value of the simple life and return to the fold. Almost all do so. I can't remember the name of the film however.
Rumschpringa is the word. Means running around.
There is a huge social stigma if you don't come back. It is like your life is cut off completely. Kinda like a cult.
Seems a young group of Amish boys got drunk one night and stole the neighbors horse and carriage to take a joy ride.
so if they get arrested for joyriding and DUI, and go to jail... who do they telephone?
Seen written on the inside of a porta-john at earlier mentioned Amish saw mill:
"Abe Yoders wife gives good head"
boys will be boys.
Ditch
Your right about the profit margins. I've read similar articles. One group did a study of Amish family farms compared to corporate farms in terms of profit. Some farms in the study were found to be as much as 300% more profitable than corporate farms that were three and four times the size of the Amish farms. Nearly all of the farms were found to be more profitable than corporate farms.
It's amazing how much money you save when you do the work yourself rather than buy a half dozen or so $150,000+ pieces of machinery to do it for you. <g>
I've been pondering this issue since it was raised earlier in the thread. Ignoring the philosophical issues of non-mechanized and organic (herbicide and pesticide free) farming, the thesis of profitability of non-mechanized farms versus agri-business ignores the productivity factor in farming.
Essentially, a non-mechanized farm of a nominal size (take one of the amish farms for the purpose of this debate) and put it against a standard mechanized farm and I would expect that on a simple profitability level that the non-mechanized farm would outperform. However, when you consider the fundamental scaling problems that non-mechanized farms have versus modern mechanized varients, it becomes evident that they are limited in size. In other words, while a non-mechized farm of 200 acres is reasonable, a non-mechanized farm of 20,000 acres is not. The labor cost required to farm 1,000 acres vs. 100 in a non-mechanized farm is at least linear, possibly greater when you consider the time component, while the mechanized farm can scale with only incremental variable expense (seed, fertilizer, etc.). Bottom line is that you can enjoy a higher level of productivity in a mechanized farm of a larger scale, which is what agribusiness is all about, and that means you produce more food per acre with lower overall expense... providing you do it on a large scale. Producing food is process manufacturing, period... the same thing as pulling oil from a well or making steel from ore, mechanization works well on a large scale production process.
To most 'English' from the city the Amish seem simple and honest and most believe them to be true 'craftsmen'. They are however just like the rest of society, some decent, some scoundrels.
It is a very controlling society and one in which formal education, beyond the basics, is looked upon as unnecessary and wasteful.
Women aren't treated much better than Taliban women. They are taken out of school earlier than males and relegated to common labor tasks like quilt making and housekeeping. Spousal abuse is common and is accepted as 'keeping your women in line'.
Many Amish loggers have poor reputations and are considered common thieves. Many advertise "forest management" which entails managing to clear cut all of your timber and leave you with acres of tops and brush laying about. They are also prone to encroaching onto neighboring land to scarf valuable hardwood. The boys on this logging did exactly that. Everything was clear cut, even marked trees ended up on the truck. Recourse? What recourse? They don't recognize our court system. Report a Yoder or Byler to the authorities....there are hundreds of them....many with the same first name...and they use their local church as their addy.
Some of the worst frame jobs I have ever seen were the work of Amish "carpenters". Barn raising ain't exactly the same thing as a complex roof frameout.
I'm not coming down on one group of people, but some of the comments made above have merit.
Ditch
I must have seen the good Amish group when they timbered the land a few years back. They left the slab wood at our request, burned all the little off-trimming stuff that got left over, left all marked trees under 16" but were watched like a hawk, they left some trees that were too crooked to give them enough lumber and I'd rather put up with horse s-hit in the woods than deep machinery ruts that stay foreverafter. An adjoining piece of property was timbered at about the same time. Standard outfit. Same ones that underbid on our timber so we went with the amish. The standard outfit went in there and literally raped the land. Took just about everything-little trees.Hauled out the logs on trailers. Machinery ruts deep. Root systems tipped up and left. broken saplings and limbs left askew all other. Looked like a bomb run hit the place. I think the amish crew preformed a valuable service by timbering and leaving the woods in a natural state. Just took them longer 'cause they set up the mill right there instead of transporting the logs.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
Your point of the scale of a mechanized is an excellent one and I think that is one over looked by many farmers using mechanized methods.
In Wisconsin where I live the largest operation that I am aware of is a family that are custom farmers. They own some land, lease the rest of the land, plant crops, cultiuvate crops, sometimes both for various dairy and feed farms around the county. They operate on about 2500 acres, and they have roughly but easily between $1-2M in equipment at any given time. They could probably farm most of the state of Nebraska with the equipment that on hand, and I don't understand how they survive on such high operating costs. (You can always tell it is them because there is a convoy of harvestors traveling down the county roads on their way to whatever fields are on the list that day). Equipment is turned around on the used markets every two to three years. I think they also are able to keep payroll down by buying such large scale equipment because of the productiviy of the equipment.
Maybe there lies the answer. You can use large scale equipment on small scale farms as long as you are not running a high payroll and are turning the equipment around on the used market before the value and usuability of the equpment has passed.
I think you've hit on part of why larger farms are, in fact, more efficient. The idea that the amish are more efficient is B.S.
It's easy to sneer at the farmers with the big, expensive machines. Like they have money to throw away on a new combine every year or 2. But they're getting squeezed more every year, just like everyone else.
When they buy bigger equipment, they use it over a lot of acres in order to spread out their per acre cost. The more acres they use it over, the faster they wear out. They trade them every every few years to maximize their trade-in values, and to minimize downtime. (Which can be very expensive)
Keeping payroll down is also one of the reasons for the large equipment. They have a hard time geting and keeping good help, just like everybody else.
BTW - Check out some of those big combines if you have the opportunity - They're absolutely amazing.
The only thing I can see that's more efficient about small farms is if they're very diversified - Like have livestock and such. They can pasture corn stalk fields, etc., which large farmers can't (reasonably) do.
Like it or not, farms are going to continue to get larger. But, like most things, that's not all bad. Larger farms tend to use reduced tillage more often, which reduces erosion. They also tend to use more high technpology stuff, like precision fertilizer application based on GPS technology. This reduces over-fertilization, which contributed to the "dead zone" in the gulf. small farms can't afford this kind of technology.
An oral contract isn't worth the paper its written on
excellent responses, both of them.
A macro issue on farming is the critical need to produce more food per acre of land. The aggregate amount of farm land in the US is decreasing, the population is expanding, therefore we have to find ways to support greater food production per acre of land in order to support our internal needs and export requirements to contribute to trade balance (deficit in one direction, surplus in the other).
Engineered crops that are disease and pest resistant, new farming techniques, technology to reduce waste, and finally, mechanization are all important factors in this equation.
".........we have to find ways to support greater food production per acre of land........."
That's been done already, and will continue to happen, I imagine. Back in the 1950s, it wasn't unusual to have 50 bushel per acre corn. Now 150 bushel corn is about average, and the world record is well over 300 bushels.
Soybeans and other crops are seeing similar gains. With the advances in biotechnology, I think we're only seeing the beginnings of it.
BTW - Even though acreage is shrinking in the US, it's expanding rapidly in South America. (That's where the rain forests are going) There won't be a food shortage anytime soon, barring an act of God.
If we do not succeed, we run the risk of failure
I appreciate your points, but I'm not talking about food shortage... my focus is on the economic necessity to offset trade deficits through ag exports (which ag in south america does nothing to help us with). Separate point altogether is global hunger, which isn't caused by lack of food but by poverty. The planet currently has enough agricultural production to feed 6 billion people.
Improving the productivity of our agriculture base is a continuous process. Biotech is one avenue of innovation, but the political issues surrounding genetically modified crops is unlikely to subside. This is unfortunate. Further mechanization that results in the ability to pick, pack and ship crops with decreasing waste and spoilage are important points of emphasis in this process. New farming techniques are another, but honestly speaking, techniques have reached the point of diminishing returns. Finally, a deep assesment of the virtues of farm subsidies and price supports has to be undertaken with an eye to reformulating a national agriculture policy plan.
"Biotech is one avenue of innovation, but the political issues surrounding genetically modified crops is unlikely to subside."
I don't agree. Given a few years, I think it will go away almost completely. I don't believe there are any good reasons not to use biotech, and the vast majority of people will come to accept it given time. (But that's a whole new subject)
"techniques have reached the point of diminishing returns."
I don't agree here either. Technology has opened up a whole range of posibilities for recuced input costs and improved yields. Most of these technologies are in their infancy, and will evolve more in the near future.
".....a deep assesment of the virtues of farm subsidies and price supports has to be undertaken....."
I totally agree there. Did you know that most farmers are against farm subsidies? The subsidies tend to inflate things like cash rent prices. So most of the money ends up in the pockets of the land owners, and do little to help the farmer.
Last night I played a blank audio tape at full blast. The mime next door went nuts.
unfortunately, I do believe that GM crops face a tough political and consumer environment. Aside from all of the groups who wish to spread fear about GM, there is the EU, which could be argued is reacting to GM as a tactic to protect their own ag industries. Multinational companies will be reluctant to employ technology that is prohibited in a 230 million consumer market. Whatever the merits, or lack thereof, GM is going to be a tough sell.
Techniques are different than technology. I do believe, heck I am in the technology industry, that tech has a lot to offer. However, to clarify my earlier point, the techniques used to farm are refined today, technology will augment them. So I don't disagree with you, but I do want to draw the distinction between process (techniques) and tools (technology).
cheers
Jeff, you make good points - one I will add that is not generally recognized is the dependence of modern ag on fossil fuel - the increase in yield mentioned is due in large part to modern nitrogen fertilizers manufactured from natural gas (Haber process) - lots of imported N goes into that field producing 150 bushel corn - you can draw a chart of farm subsidies flowing around and ending up at the oil (energy) companies -
our (US) policy of cheap food has caused the demise of the rural economy - for all the faults to be found in Amish/Mennonite society, areas where they reside have a vitality that has been lost in larger society - DOUD (where in the morning, I will set up beside Yoder at the farmers market, Smucker is coming to my farm for fresh peaches, and after market, I'll make a delivery to Graber)
David,
that's a very interesting point that I had not considered in my earlier thinking.
".....the increase in yield mentioned is due in large part to modern nitrogen fertilizers......."
I don't think that's true at all. Nitrogen is certainly important for corn, but less so for soybeans and other crops. And much of the yeild gains are due to the improvements in equipment and the development of hybrid crops.
I wonder if the people who oppose biotechnology realize that virtually everything they has been bio-engineered? They've been cross polinating stuff since the 50s to improve crops. Bioengineering just speeds up the process.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Yes Boss, you are correct again on biotech. But the technology is not as simple as speeding up the process that occurs when we cross-pollinate plants of similar or adjacent species. Here I am in full agreement that the technology is pretty straightforward, even safer than traditional cross breeding techniques because you can isolate a single gene to splice into the host, rather than a merging 2 gene strings and hoping the organism works it out.
Where the industry runs into problems is when they want to take genes from completely different genus' and combine them. For example, taking a gene from a spider that that produces a protein that is responsible for the great strength and flexibility of spider webs, and insert it into the common cotton plant.
The next scenario is where you insert some genes from one species of plant into another that it would have zero probability of combining with naturally.
Finally, the prospect of inserting purely engineered genes into plants and animals has alot of people uncomfortable. Although in this case, the technology that is required to create genes is beyond cutting edge at this time.
I am a fan of genetically modified foods, make no mistake about it. I have a lot of friends in that industry, and believe them to be good, ethical scientists who have a lot of control of the technology they are working with. I also believe that we need to tread carefully, else we may inadvertantly let a genie out of the bottle that can't be put back in.
But the benefits of GM demand that we, as a global society, move forward and work these issues out. GM holds the promise of solving the poverty equation of global hunger by providing countries with adverse farming conditions crops that grow with little water or are pest resistent, etc. These same crops can be altered to provide critical nutrients for parts of the world that don't get them naturally, enabling an entire generation of children to grow up healthy and actually have a better chance of reaching adulthood.
After reading your post, I'm not sure if we agree or not...............(-:
Honestly - I had no idea that they had tried inserting animal genes into plants. Not sure if that matters to me, but it's an interesting turn of events.
It's interesting that it's either called "biotechnology" or "Genetically Modified Organisms" depending on which side of the fence you're on. Kind like being "pro life" or "pro choice", I guess. No one calls themselves "anti choice" or "anti life".
we sure have gotten off the track of the original post here.........
Don't be redundant by repeating yourself
GM holds the promise of solving the poverty equation of global hunger
I'm not sure about this - the nature of globalization of the economy is not to local produce/high effeciency, rather the movement of goods to allow profits on several levels - much better to grow fruit in both hemispheres and run ships and trucks and docks and import firms and inspectors etc than to engineer fruit that can be grown locally with low ethylene respriration so abled to be stored on site for off season consumption - people who are poor are out of luck - they can afford neither the inputs or the technology to participate - - philanthropy?, perhaps, but it's not evident to me -
as far as the source of genes is concerned, whether the sequence of ATCG comes from plant, animal, or synthesized in the lab (done recently) is a lost point in this debate, and I think justifiably so, - -
David,
When you provide African nations with GM staple crops that are resistant to pests in that region, or more importantly, drought resistant, you have solved a *huge* problem with agriculture in parts of Africa. The result of that is nations become self sufficient and reduce their dependency on imported food, which is bought and paid for largely with debt that further improvishes those nations by increasing their debt ratios and reducing their access to capital... at least increasing the cost of that capital. Of course, I am neatly sidestepping the political ineptitude of some of these countries to sustain themselves, but that is outside of ag policy.
I mispoke in my earlier post about solving the poverty side of the equation. GM does nothing to solve poverty, but it does provide access to food that may not otherwise be available. GM does provide countries with a way to grow their own food rather than relying upon the generosity of donors, or on an import model that creates unsupportable economic trade inbalances. It's a lot of theory, I admit.
Finally, small point of correction on Golden Rice, it does not prevent blindness, but rather provides a source of vitamin A that native populations in some regions of the world are lacking in. Vit A deficiency in children leads to a wide range of maladies that can easily be prevented through this supplement.
here's a link to a summary of a 1997 Scientific American article that went into depth on the subject http://nsm1.utdallas.edu/bio/Reitzer/Lecture/Spring2002/BIO_3362/Chemical%20cycles-abbrev.htm -you have to subscribe to access the whole article - might find it in your library - tho it doesn't show well in the summary, there is meat in the published article in regards to modern ag's dependence on N fertilization -
I'll agree that N on beans is not much of a factor (and beans don't yield 150+ bushel/acre), but N as regards to non legumes is the major factor in high yields - it's possible to grow 150 bushel corn without synthesized N, but it would be necessary to import several acres of organically fixed N to each corn acre to achieve it - I don't dispute that breeding, herbicides, insecticides, machinery, improvement in tillage practices, etc, all play a role in yields we now expect, but without N from fossil fuels the yields would be a fraction of what they are -
I have mixed emotions about 'biotech' - great potential - disease resistance, frost resistance, N fixation, nutrition improvements, storage ability, etc etc - however, there is interspecie genetic transfer mechanisms (mycoplasms, perhaps others?) - things like terminator genes, herbicide resistance, ?scenerios, the law of unintended consequences, call for some level of caution - if the debate was about golden rice preventing blindness rather than Monsantos corporate profits... - interestingly, I googled on 'golden rice' to refresh my memory, and 7 of the first 10 hits are negative - - and so it goes -
Corn is definitely dependent on high levels of nitrogen fertilizer.............In most cases.
But did you know that on some soils, corn doesn't respond to high levels of nitrogen? Research is underway to determine exactly why, and how to do soil tests to determine when to apply nitrogen and when not to. They believe it has something to do with the existence of an amino acid (I think that is in some soils.
Also - natural gas isn't the only source of nitrogen for fertilizer - Just the least expensive.
I would agree that biotech has enormous promise - I wish I knew enough to work in that field. But I also agree that caution is necessary.
The "golden rice" that was supposed to prevent blindness was a great example - It was proven to be safe, but just wasn't accepted by the people who needed it the worst. I don't think Monsanto had anything to do with that. (But I'm not sure)
I have hopes that soon they will breed corn that isn't so dependent on nitrogen. That will greatly reduce polution, and lessen the "dead zone" in the Gulf of Mexico. Maybe biotech can reduce the neeed for atrazine, which is also a large source of polution in Illinois.
Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time.
I love to see people working horses and mules. Used to see that back in eastern Kentucky, but not much anymore. A neighbor worked his garden with a team of mules till he was in his 90's. Still going strong at 102. Still gardening, but uses a rototiller behind a garden tractor. I tried plowing potatoes out of the ground with a horse and moldboard plow once. Horses are dang hard to work if you don't know what you're doing.
Post some more pics if you got em.
I will stop by and get some more pictures today. This young man said he's been driving teams since he was 7 years old. He's only 15. His uncle will use the cherry (after it air dries for a few years) to build furniture.
Ditch
By the way....my wife thinks this kid is a total stud!!
Ditch
I hope she's not a teacher.Tom
No...worse....a flight attendant!!
Ditch
So thats how yer gettin here to help me with my floors....I think I got that 322 year old house,,,I'll know this week comin'.......I'll meet ya at LaGuardia.......LOL
Be well
Namaste
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Andy
It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Edited 8/11/2002 8:42:21 AM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)
Ditch.....is that like an Amish Tri-Axle? Just where do ya find a 6 legged horse anyways? Must be great for low end power range!
Kid musta been new order...letting his pic be snapped like that. Jeff.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
It looks to me like the kid did not know he was being included in the photo.Quittin' Time
The Amish don't like having their photo taken by the "English" or "outsiders". That would include you guys, being from the big city and all. I am local, therefore I ask first, unlike tourists who just shoot at will. There are Amish trimmers up here who carry porfolios of their work, just like most of us.
The Amish are slowly embracing technology. There is a mill up here that is Amish owned and operated, all the equipment is CNC. The owner has a gas well that supplies power to a huge generator. He also drives a brand new Dodge dually and spends most of his time on the computer in his airconditioned office. Outside the shop are a dozen or so buggies parked under shade trees. Many Amish also have a phone in the barn for "business".
Most of my neighbors have Amish housekeepers, they all congregate to watch Regis and Kelly in the morning at a "safe house", someone who won't blabber the infraction to an elder.
Our local Wal-Mart has a special parking area for buggies, with a shovel and dumpster for spent fuel.
Ditch
So where exacty are you located? I'm in the northeasternmost corner of Ohio bordering Pa. Plenty of Amish folk and carriages. Saw in a neighboring community where the city was having trouble dealing with the excessive amount of horse manure on the town square. They were looking at passing city ordinance to rectify the situation. I heard some clans were selling and moving into illinois and indiana 'cause land was getting too expensive in these parts for their farming purposes.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
rez,
I'm in Mercer County Pa. Not far from you. Are you near Astabula Oh.?
Lots of Amish are selling their farms to developers. They are reaping millions, as the farms have been owned by the society for generations. A few have left the Sects as millionaires and become high-end builders. Yes, I have also heard they are buying up farmland in the midwest.
Ditch
some things I've learned about the Amish:
1) all Amish communities are not alike, some will allow more technology than others and so on, based on their community's judgement.
2) the Amish do not "reject technology" per se. But they are very conservative in what technology they choose to adopt.
3) above someone made a crack that the youth who choose to not come back after their youthful running around was 'like a cult'. Nothing like a cult. Remember, a cult will try in all ways to never let you leave, and will never encourage you to go out and 'see the other side' before you make your choice. The Amish practice of letting their youth make their own choice is a very different thing in my book, showing much wisdom in the issue of 'dealing with youth'. Being pretty well cut off if you do choose to leave is just the community's way of protecting its own way of life from too much modern intrusion, it seems to me.
You say I "made a crack" about them being a cult. Well, my friend, that was not a crack. I know far more than you about these people. And the bare fact is that they act like a cult, they talk like one... remember the duck?
You say they are not a cult because they let their youth check out the other side. What hogwash. You only expose your ignorance. The truth is they had better come back or else... And that is NOT the freedom to choose. This running around period has nothing to do with choice my friend.
BTW, argue if you want. Unless you are one of them, or used to be, I would suggest you ASK me about them instead of taking cheap shots at my statements.
dumkopf...
ouch!
a firm rebuke. I obviously have touched a nerve.
You and I have usually seen eye-to-eye in the past.
Would you care to elaborate any on your postition? I would like to learn more about this because the Amish have always been an unusual and interesting part of the community but that I (seem to) know less about than I had thought.
Sorry.... I am more sensitive this morning because of a situation I faced yesterday... see the "Are you a hack" thread.
I gotta run now... but the short answer is this... the perception the give off is good. And they are good mostly people... but the reality is different when you get "inside".
They can be some of the most rotten lying SOBs on earth. I was in a very strict Mennonite group. Actually had to bug phones, bug homes, and tape stuff to prove they were lying. I did it too. Then they basically told me to get out.
I am personally responsible for reporting 2 child molesters. They are FULL of that but keep it quiet. I personally know of wife beatings, etc.
I actually broke into a preachers house and copied documents that proved what lying, corrupt SOBs they were. Shaking down members... screwing the schoolteacher... etc. Unfortunately I lost them all in a bad auto accident when I was moving.
I am financing a sting right now where a big shot Mennonite preacher is screwing around with prostitues. I am paying to get the hard evidence documented. It is in a different state from where I live. This guy hurt my little brother bad and it will be worth every penny to see him exposed.
Have I said enough to give you an idea why I have little use for these groups? The Amish operate exactly the same way. I am from Amish background. Almost all my relatives are Mennonite or Amish. I get mad at stuff like yesterday but the rest is a game.
All the break-ins, etc happened when I was in my teens.
All this goes for the stricter Mennonites and Amish only.
There is a well respected regular here who is a Mennonite but with a good group I could be happy with.
wow, thanks.
'nuff said.
I wish you all the best in your edevours to expose the bad ones.
On reflection it makes sense: repressive culture, secretive and fundamentalist. Sounds like a recipe for dangerous behavior.
Hey Wet Head, I hear about a little organization called the Catholic Church that has some of those same issues. Good luck fighting the good fight.Close enough for government work
You do know the Mennonites and Amish were started by an ex-Catholic preist don't you?
This is why I stay with the Buddhist tradition. Dont beleive those dudes have run into this issue yet.
Be well
Namaste'
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Heavy story, dude. I can sympathize. My wife was raised Mennonite (no indoor plumbing til she was 9), her mom was old order Amish. I know a few stories too. They were mited after Mom's sister became pregnant out of wedlock.
However, my experience is that they are, for the most part, just like everyone else on earth. Some are scumbags, some I would trust anything they said or did. Each church is different as to what they believe is worldly and what isn't, who is in favor and who isn't. The Amish crew that just completed work on my barn, don't drive autos (now tractors, that's another story) don't have electicity in their homes (garage is ok so long as it is off the grid) but yet have running water and showers, which was quite a surprise.
If your guy is guilty, I hope you succeed.
wsf
Sorry about your brother in every way, but please don't lay his experience on the entire Amish community. I grew up with a bunch of Amish in Lancaster County. I worked with a lot, also...as a group, I've been screwed by more English plumbers. I'm not trying to make light of whatever your brother's situation is, but condemning all the Amish?
oh yeah, photos, graven images, I belive,not acceptable in Amish ideology...
Edited 8/17/2002 9:05:13 PM ET by bucksnort billy
bucksnort...
First of all these are strict Mennonites. Pics are oK by them.
Second I did not condemn them all.
Third, they (the strict groups) all operate from the same basis which is total control of you and your life. Almost all of these groups have some level of garbage. Which is OK except for the fact that they PRETEND they are so righteous and that only they will go to heaven... yeah... those guys you worked with think YOU are going to HELL because you are not one of them. While they get drunk, have abortions, etc.
PS. I speak the truth about the abortion thing. Not widespread but it happens among some Amish in PA. Hey, one of my best friends came from Belleville, PA. He slept with his wife for years before he got married as did all his friends. They get sloshed every weekend. I may not approve but when I get pissed about it is when they condemn my friend to HELL because he shaved his beard off. Or when his FIL called (from a payphone) to chew his butt because he heard his wife wears print dresses (vs. plain material) while he is known to beat his wife every day.
Pure BS that these folks are so holy. They are just like everyone else EXCEPT they think they are better than everyone else and condemn YOU all to HELL!
Hey... what's with knocking plimbers? Huh?
LOL... No offense taken. I know how too many plumbers are. I call them Billy Butt Crack plumbers... and that has nothing to do with whether they are in uniform or not.
I fight this crap by doing the best job I can and educating those I meet.
Yeah, what is with that low-rider pants attitude for plumbers? Personally (having worked w/the trades for several years) I think it's an attitude thing. Painters, plasterers, tile setters, electricians, etc., as a rule, don't show their butt on the job.
Edited 8/17/2002 9:55:40 PM ET by kai
Go to the supply house with me some Monday morning and listen to me sputter as I am leaving. You would know I agree more than you realize.
I go to great pains to avoid this and think it is slobs who don't care. I personally have to buy extra long shirts and wear suspenders to avoid showing butt crack but whatever it takes I will do. And then we wonder why plumbers are the "butt" of so may jokes.
If you think I am hard on DIYers here when they mess with stuff they shouldn't you should see me on the plumbing e-mail list responding to some of the "Pro" hacks and their lousy attitudes. I get downright mean.
Thanks, WH. I've worn loose pants on the job, but never low panties at the same time!
oh the images dancing in my mind.... LOL
LOL back atcha--you probably don't know I'm a liberal hehehe.
You're crazy. And that's a sincere compliment.
Thanks :-)
I always thought you were a tough guy...I'm more glad you're not...Amish and Mennonites are not the same...personally I find the Mennonites much more dour, most Amish people will crack you up...but didn't this start out about an Amish logger and end up with some Mennonite that wronged your brother? I have a sister who was abused, but I don't hate the country of her abuser, or the people who emigrated from that country...geez, I'm not even real tolerant...can't stand republicans unless they're my parents ;-)
I am 1 generation removed from Amish... with many Amish relatives... I speak the language... grew up in a church where the main dif was we had electric, cars, and phone... but the way the church operated was the same.
It isn't just about my brother... it's about all those getting hurt...
In a weird way I do get along better with the Amish than the Mennonites I grew up with. Some Amish that is...
WH,
Duluth Trading Co. sells a t-shirt just for plumbers. Its an extra 3" long in the back.
Check it out at http://www.duluthtrading.com
I think it is called the longtail.
dl<FONT COLOR='NAVY'>'When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow'</FONT>
That's where I buy'em these days and thanks. I also wear their "Sidewinder" suspenders.
WHW -
I'm a sidewainder kinda guy myself. Since my belly is bigger than my rear end, somehting's gootta keep those pants up.
BTW - Here's the exact URL for the shirts DealLoad mentioned:
http://www.duluthtrading.com/cgi-bin/sgin0130.exe?UID=2002081912184552&GEN0=&GEN1=&T1=25531+WHI+MED&FNM=00&UREQA=N
There are only three kinds of people; people who can count and people who can't
C'mon, Kai, words just won't do.
Pictures, we want pictures.
: )Quittin' Time
You probably don't want a pic :-)
A lot of my family are/were(a death thing) Mennonites. I have two living relatives that are Mennonite preacher guys...one has a sense of humour, one doesn't...still good folks...there's people that screw up everywhere( I know I do, and quite well without any religious affliation). I've had very good experiences with both the Amish and Mennonites, so, when somone starts ragging them in a very public place that I frequent, I gotta ask, exactly why? They are friends of mine...and one of my best friends plumbs, but we still make him cover up his crack(s):-)
Edited 8/17/2002 10:12:37 PM ET by bucksnort billy
You are more qualified to speak on the subject than almost everyone else here.
But unless you were on the inside of the stricter groups you will never see behind the veil where the garbage is hidden. To the public they look a lot different than they do from the inside.
I am sick of my friends being hurt by these self righteous cult-like groups. I was hurt badly (they literally drove me to the edge of suicide) and some more crap just came my way in the last couple of weeks from them. I told my wife no more working for them as they just can't leave me alone.
I get told I am going to hell for having a radio, etc.
Oh yes wonderful Ashtabula Ohio is nary a stones throw away from here. More amish folk in trumbull co. tho'. Shoulda seen their set up when they timbered the woods. They trucked in a club house for the guys, a barn structure for huge belgin horses, a 36" carbide saw that cut like something else, a second smaller saw and the diesel engine to power the whole shabang. But they hired the guy with the van to haul them around. I ended up buying a couple stacks of rough cut maple that they didnt get out quick enough and had the blue start on it.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
Blue Star on it?
They waited too long to get the gradeing guy in there to check the wood and so a blue mold or something begins to stain the wood in small light blue streaks that destoys the integrity of appearence for maple flooring. I bought it because it was already there on the property and all I had to do was sticker it and cover. I'll find a use for it someday. I think the blue stain adds an appeal to the wood.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
I agree. I was born and raised at Grandin, MO where in the 20's they had the world's largest sawmill. In the 70's someone recovered a bunch of pine from the mill pond and sawed it up. Beautiful blue lumber. Just gorgeous. I miss tha country. Fished the old mill pond many an afternoon....
You sound like a bass man looking for those old farm pond lunkers. A wiggling fresh good size nightcrawler paraded right in front of them will get 'em everytime regardless of feeding time. Like being stuffed at a full course meal and then they pass the chocolate covered nuts, you just can't resist regardless.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
Ever seen a horse pull? (Like a tractor pull) They sure are something.
I remember one at the local county fair where the team that won pulled something like their own weight plus 10,000#. Absolutely amazing.
My Dad worked with horses from the time he was 6 or 7, so I don't soubt this guy is telling the truth. There's a picture floating around somewhere of Dad barefoot standing on a harrow and holding the reins of a team when he was prety young.
I think draft horses are neat, but they're too expensive to keep for me to be able to swing it.
Paying alimony is like feeding hay to a dead horse.
Gee I got all fired up last night by pulling out some bushes with a 16hp tractor.....boy do I feel silly now. This kid makes me feel like I should be sucking on a baby bottle.
Those horses are beautiful animals.
SJ
If any of you guys ever find yourself in Western Washington, try to schedule a trip to Aberdeen. It's an old mill town, actually more like a city, on the coast that has definately seen better days. Anyway, several years ago someone down there started painting these huge murals on the sides of buildings downtown. Most of the scenes are of loggers and farmers and mills and such...pretty much all depictions of working class people. I'm pretty sure there's at least one with logging horses. I always enjoy looking at those things whenever we get down that way.
Have you seen 'em, Art?
Brinkmann for president in '04
Just an experiment with a new resizing program, this should be smaller:
Ditch
Smaller again:
Ditch
I'd say about 1/2 way between those last two would be ideal, Ditch.
Anytime we expect members of a group to act a certain way based on what other members of that group did, that's called "prejudice", isn't it? We all carry predjudice around and it clouds our ability to give people the benefit of the doubt. But really, it's our loss more than theirs.
Brinkmann for president in '04
Let's try this size:
Ditch
How about this ?Quittin' Time
Luka,
Unless I'm viewing the page differently than you, I have to scroll around to see the whole pic at once.
Ditch
The pic size is 640 by 480.
What resolution do you have your screen set to ?
What size and kind of monitor do you have ? Are you running windows ?Quittin' Time
...Amish image re-sizing...? the world's second triple oxy-moron?.....If it is to be, 'twil be done by me..
Luka,
Help me out. I'm using Windows ME. Where do I adjust my reolution setting? Control Panel?
Ditch
I haven't used windows ME, so I don't know if this will work or not, but it's worth a try.
Go to the desktop. Find a clear spot on the screen. Between a couple icons or something.
RIGHT click on that clear spot on the screen. Choose "properties".
In the window that pops up, there are tabs along the top. Choose the "settings" tab.
Now look in the bottom right corner of the screen. You will see the slider, to set the resolution for the screen. I have mine set at 960 by 720.
To the left of that slider, you will see the place to set the number of colors on your screen as well. The more the better.
The resolution and number of colors that your computer can handle depends mostly on the type of monitor you have, and the type of graphics card. That is why I asked all those other questions.
...
If right clicking on a blank space on the desktop doesn't get you that window... Then go into control panel and look for the display icon.
Cut me some slack here
Quittin' Time