You book a nice remodeling job. Big new addition, work outside, work inside.
Customer hits you up after the deal is made, says he wants to have their college student son, coming home at about the halfway point of the job, help in the crew.
Wants a give-back figure. How many dollars?
How do you respond?
We said the figure is zero. No way to evaluate his skills, no time for teaching, cannot risk a workers comp claim if he whacks off his thumb with something, yadda, yadda, yadda.
But there has got to be something Junior can do, says the owner, pushing.
How about cleaning up?
We think about that. Say, what if all we did at each day’s end was drop our bags and jump in the trucks. No cleaning up, ever. Even the tool consolidation. No plastic bags to buy, no garbage cans, no dump runs, just throw the scraps out the window.
What’s that worth?
Replies
When I was in college I worked summers and part time for contractors. The experience paid off many times over, plus I had fun. I'm sure they paid no workman's comp insurance or any other required overhead, but things were different then. I got these jobs on my own so there was no conflict. I would not let a kid work on my roof today without knowing that he was covered by comp insurance.
This proposal is not really fair to you. I suppose you could make a deal with the guy and say "this price includes no job site cleanup" and if the kid doesn't perform then cleanup can be a change order to the job.
You still have liability.
He can fail to throw out what he should and can throw ot things he should not without your direct supervision.
my past experience with this sort of thing have always been that he is not worth having around, and could jeapordize the process. but if I thought he might be of value, I would make a deal to hire him at a price to be determined based on his actual value after seeing his actions for a week since he is sight unseen.
nine times out of ten, when the kid doesn't have the balls to find a job on his own, he is a loser
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
"Wants a give-back figure. How many dollars?"
A 10% add on. Each evening as he sits at the dinner table running through the list of the days work and comments about how X messed up this the first try and Y cound't make something fit perfect, you'll be answering so many questions the next day you won't have time for any work.
Not worth it. If the kid wants a job with a contractor, let him go find one. It doesn't have to be you. And there is NO way I'd let him hang around after you leave and clean up.
Gene - Is this a bid job, or some form of "cost-plus"?
Funny response from all you guys who seem to dismiss this idea without a second thought. Maybe this is a chance to get a young person started in the trades, or at least for that person to gain an appreciation for what goes on daily in our profession.
I sure hope I never catch any of you bemoaning the lack of good young people entering the building trades.
I say give the kid a try at minimum wage until you can make a more informed decision about his ability or interest in learning. Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
Lump sum. The curve ball came at us after we had made the deal, and gotten the deposit.
I don't want to bore you with all the other spit that came on the curve ball. This one is the one we are focusing on here.
Jim, I have done this before and it wasn't pretty. The problem comes when you have to fire the kid for screwing up at the same time you are trying to collect a final payment. Bad feeling over loser kid messing up relationship with good customers.gene, if there is a bunch of other spit on the curve ball, I'd think about refunding the deposit and backing out. Not much good comes from customers who want to re-negotiate after signed
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
There is a big difference between the kid showing up and asking for a job and the dad demanding you give the kid a job. The kid shows up, you know he is interested in working. Under this light the kid may just be doing it to shut the old man up. Not to mention the liability of do overs, safety, comp potential etc. Think business. Not romance for a moment. DanT
"Think business. Not romance for a moment."
You remember that Italian guy who made that movie a few years ago and won...I don't think it was "Best Picture", but it was one of the big awards? I think the name of the movie was "It's A Beautiful Life"? About the Jewish family during WWII?
Anyways, you happen to catch his acceptance speech? He said something like "Make love to your family, to your community, and to your work. And they will all make love to you".
Sorry, Dan. No way for me to seperate romance from my work. Just not interested. The more I give it, the more it gives me back, just like other important parts of my life.
Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
We must run in different circles. Missed the movie, the guys name, the awards show and the speech.
I don't know what all that had to do with hiring a kid that hasn't even said he wants a job in the hopes he may want to suddenly quit college (which I am sure his parents would really love with as much enthusiasm as your speech maker) and become a carpenter. Romance may have been a poor term. How about thinking with a little business logic instead of the Readers Digest version of "man hires boy, boy finds new career love". DanT
I think the point is that your work is about more than money and therefore your decisions are based on more than money. If the decision were only about money then clearly you should not let the kid near the job. If your work is about the love of the craft and you get into teaching people about it then maybe you should let the kid in on it and take a chance.
I've read everything Jim's written in FHB and I've heard how much FHB pays per page. It can't be just about the money."With every mistake we must surely be learning"
Sorry Jim, that was your nickel."With every mistake we must surely be learning"
My train of thought was along your lines Jim. I know from a business side, a professional side, etc... it may not be the best of ideas but....
The first thing that I thought was, nice, hear is a kid thats interested in the construction trades, wants to help work on his parents house. Seems most people think that this kid isnt going to want to work, is lazy,etc. Its sad. Whats even more sad is most of these people are speaking from the voice of experience.
Here's to hopeing that the next kid someone here sticks their neck out for makes the glass half full.Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
It's different when they seek you out and apply for a job, then when they are used for leverage.
Na na-na-na-na na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na na-na-na-na !I need somebody to help me say it one time!
Edited 3/19/2006 1:25 pm ET by Gunner
In the winter of 1980, when I was 21, I worked for framer in CT. I remember it being bitter cold. I learned how to frame gable walls, measure, cut and install rafters, and other good stuff. For sticking with him in cold weather be bought me an Estwing framing hammer. The first day I used it the new waffle head removed a good bit of skin from my left index finger. I still have the hammer and I think about that guy and how much I learned from him.
I suppose I could have fallen off the roof, or cut my kneecap in half (he liked to remove the guards from his sidewinders, which is insane). I guess then the lesson would be to never hire an inexperienced kid without insurance and how you could lose your business.
When are you going to start that school up so some kid can one day write about how much he learned from you? "With every mistake we must surely be learning"
Jim,
There would be a difference between hiring him on as an employee vs. giving his father a discount off the project cost though.
My gut re-action was the same as everyone else, however, I think you have a valid point in regard to hiring him.
I wonder if Dad is simply to trying to save money by pimping his son, or if the son has an actual desire to do the work? That would make a difference.
Could be Dad is simply tired of his son being home from college with no job and is trying to give him a push, if that was the case, the kid probably isn't going to be all that motivated or worthwile.
by the way, I've been on both sides of that same situation.... Not exactly my dad pushing me on someone, but pushing me to get off my lazy rear, where I wasn't motivated to work, I also got one of my first job's in remodeling working for someone who was working on my folk's home, though I was hired after he completed my parents project.
Edited 3/19/2006 5:18 pm ET by CAGIV
If you really thought highly of the lad...you could hire the local temp service to hire him for clean up. If that was going great, maybe add on to his duties.
My first job was job clean up/gofer, then got to do drywall blocking & backing (man that was cool!)
All very good points raised, but no one has addressed the bottom line issue.
He is asking you to increase your crew by 1 extra person. If you want to avoid liability issues, you need him on the payroll, with comp and taxes. And in the end you end up paying the kid and it comes out of your profit. You figured the cost of the joob based on a crew of a certain size. Can you afford the loss of profit? will this person likely be a repeat customer? If you do this and he passes word of this to your other clients, are you will to do this for others?
Rick, you are asking the right questions now.
Gene, your client is sending you a signal and I think it's time for you to stay strong and be prepared to walk away.
First, tell your client that if you were inclined to hire someone, you'd opt to hire someone that wants a permanent position and would start out as a pre-apprentice at pre-apprentice rates. They'd have to earn your trust to get past the ninety day tryout period. Make it explicitly clear that you cannot afford to spend your time training and supervising someone that does not intend to make a career out of this.
If he's reasonable, he'll begin to understand. Explain that even if he PAYED YOU, you aren't interested because it takes too much time and effort and when you are teaching, the job isn't getting done.
Further explain that all aspects of the job were already sorted out and planned for and you can't just increase the size of the fulltime crew by 20% without increasing the scope of the job 20%. If perhaps he wants to crank up the volume and scope of the job, maybe you can figure something out.
Stay strong and offer to cancel the contract if his son working is so critical.
blue
I hired my house to be painted. My 13 year old son needed some basic skill in painting, so my deal up front to the painter is my son paints the deck, you have a $100 allowance to supervise/train him. The painter was a teacher during the "off" season and enjoyed teaching kids. My son got $75 and the deck got painted. Worked out. No ladders involved. It was important to me that my son work for another at that age.
In your case the deal is done. Going into it ahead of contract signing I believe you would have said no, so why is it different now?
My first kitchen/bath remodel job had something similar come up. They paid the kid, he was under my supervision and I was supposed to give him work to do. He was a HS sophmore soon to be junior.
He didn't want to do the job. His parents insisted. He screwed off most of the time. Then he used a couple of my tools without asking.....and left without returning them. When he returned the next day I firmly, but not using my standard profanity or threats, informed him that using my tools was out without my permission and supervision and not returning them would mean he couldn't work with them ever again.
Momma stopped by later and I met her in the drive to run it down, just so she would have the straight story. Told her no big deal etc. etc. but wanted her to be informed. She said I had no right to yell at her son and he was doing the best he could. After all, I wasn't paying him. Needless to say we didnt' see him again and the relationship was tense the rest of the job. You will not win in this situation. I would not do it again. DanT
Let me rephrase the question.
It is not whether Junior can work in the crew in exchange for some rebated cost. That is out for all the reasons you can imagine.
It is "what is owner-furnished cleanup services" worth?
It must be done after hours. We don't care who does it, whether it is mom, pop, or Junior.
The one concern already stated is "what happens when good material gets thrown away?" But what else is there, and really, what is it worth?
I can't imagine you want to work with debris underfoot all day just so the owners can earn a few pesos by cleaning up.
You'd need to reset everything in the A.M.,couldn't find tools,materials etc.
That would be worse in my estimation than having the son work while you're there.
I'd be looking for other jobs by now.
gene, i'd withhold a decision
i'd talk to the customer and tell him i'd consider hiring the applicant based on an interview.
if he gets by the interview ,it would be probation , and i'd set the rate based on the going rate for his skill level ( unskilled laborer )
he'd be hired as an employee and he'd be subject to all the rules and insurance requirements of an employee..
if he didn't interview well, i'd say no deal.. if he interviews well, it could be a win-win..
no give-backs, no add-ons.. just on an as needed basis, depending on the interview and his performance during the probationary period
i know you've got enough management skills to make a decision based on that
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike's answer is pretty much what I would have done.If I understand it correctly, the customer does not want you to pay the kid... -and-... deduct money from the overall. The customer wants the kid to pay for his keep a bit by working for you while pops keeps some money he would have spent.Someone here has a tagline... Failure to plan on your part, does not constitute an emergency on my part.Taken another way, the customer's desire to get some kind of payback from his kid does not equal a good enough reason for you to take on the risks he wants you to take... -AND- give up part of the money you have contracted for, besides.If he wants the kid to work for you, then as Mike said... Nothing about your contract with the customer changes. The kid comes in for an interview. If he passes, you pay him minimum until you know his abilities or lack thereof. Whether he passes or not, the "value" your customer wants from his son, is between he and his son. You pay the son, Pops can demand the money back from HIM, or not. But you have nothing to do with that relationship.
I've got you outnumbered, one to one. Come out and meet your doom. ~Yosemite Sam
Sorry, this was to the original poster-I don't think I would let the kid work on this job. If it was a smaller (much) job, maybe he could do some little things, but the deal was done before he brought this up, so he should live with it. What if the kid doesn't know which end of a screwdriver to pound on?Kind of like a sign where I worked for a while, Shop labor rate- $30/hr
If you watch- $40/hr
If you help- $50/hr
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 3/20/2006 9:13 pm by highfigh
where do you guys get your help?
i get experienced guys.. and i get young dudes and duddettes
i've taught an awful lot of young guys over the years.. some work out, some don't
my point, and i bet , jim's too, stop thinking about the Owner ( Dad ) and interview the kid..
if Gene has employees, this kid might be just the ticket.. or he might not..
me..i'm ALWAYS looking for new guys...sometimes i hire , sometimes i don't
and gimme a break..... this is a whole house we're talking about, who can't use a willing, albeit inexperienced, guy who wants to work and learn...?????
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The deal is done and now the Client wants to renegotiate. That's okay and is done, though not recommended. You are setting a precident that the Contract is not firm and is open for renegotiation beyond CO's and Addendums to Work. Beware. These are dangerous waters.Nonetheless, the Client has defined what he wants - employment of his son AND a rebate. Interesting...So, ask yourself - what do YOU want, NOT what it is worth. As a simple answer regarding what it is worth - he does all the cleanup and you will deduct 1/3 of what you are charging the Client for cleanup. You still should be collecting for WC, Overhead and Profit.But IMO it's too expensive.You are allowing another to have access to YOUR jobsite (in the eyes of your insurers and Workman's Compensation Board) without any supervision. If someone gets hurt - him (or his friend "hanging out") late in the day or one of your guys during the day because something was stored improperly or not unplugged - it's your azz that is on the line. It's your rates which will be affected. If the son wants a job in construction: hire him at another job and make conditions of employment independant of this job or recommend another GC for him to interview with.Since when do we allow Clients dictate who we hire? Can you say "Conflict of interests"?Let us know your decision.FrankieThere he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.—Hunter S. Thompson
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
We've been getting kind of the same thing at work. What it amounts to is keeping someone elses problem busy. We haven't had one yet that wants to be there or cares.
I wouldn't do it.
Na na-na-na-na na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na na-na-na-na !
I need somebody to help me say it one time!
Give back figure? If the guy wants junior to learn the value of a dollar then those dollars you need to pay out for help you dont need amount to a change order. why should it happen on your dime?
I dont know how many times a client has told me they would do clean-up and haul trash away, it never happens.
I think you're starting to get the picture here. Don't let the client dictate your crew to you even if the thought of "dropping your tools and leaving " appeals to you. Yes we all need to help the next generation out in anyway we can but let it be on your terms not theirs.
I would be as nice as possible, but commit to nothing. Let him come around, meet him first (for crying out loud! You would never hire someone you hadn't met would you??) I think as another poster said --Interview him. Go from there...
Let us know how it worked out.
Gene, maybe ask the cust. (in a nice friendly way, 'course) if when he goes to the doctor, he asks the doc if his kid can help out with the procedure or diagnosis.
You are no less of a professional than the doc. and the outcome of the job on this guy's house depends on that skill no less than surgery depends on the skill of the doc. If after explaining it this way to the cust., he doesn't respect you as a skilled professional at what you do and still wants his inexperienced kid on the job, you got the wrong cust.
I assume this cust. works. Let him go ask his employer to take the kid in as a trainee. See how far that goes.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
I wouldn't want to allow because of liability and almost as important, it would throw a wrench into the systems we try to keep up.
Junior probably isn't going to know what needs to be done or how we like to leave things to make for much time savings. How many times do you think you'll have to call the owner or his son and say, "Yesterday you did good but....."
With part of the clean up I like our guy's to stage for the next day, plus it gives them time to look over the job at the end of the day for a few moments and mentally note what's on deck for tomorrow.
Even though it's clean up and broom pushing it is still an important part of our work.
without reading any other posts:
the first thing that came to mind is... which one of your regular guys did he want you to lay off that depends on you to provide his wages...
simple answer... Sorry I can't trim my crew any they depend on me and i depend on them year round... whatever you do.. don't explain past that... period..... any more explaining that that and they won't believe you anyway....
end of subject...
ps.... tell dad to take the kid to work with him
p
I would do what ponytl said....
or...hire the kid cheap,work his ***** off, be a total
exploiter of human flesh and mean and nasty to boot....
better chance of the kid staying in school that way.....
might even ask dear old dad about summer school...
regards
a little harsh no lol?
just trying to scare 'em into becoming the next Gates or such...:)
Remember that Gates dropped out of college to start some company or something."With every mistake we must surely be learning"
don't think he would of been quite the hit had he
picked up a hammer....:)
I agree. He's made for "software". But hey, he can hire as many hammer swingers as he needs."With every mistake we must surely be learning"
I'm a homeowner and not in the building trades and even I think this a dumb idea. Reasons already cited 1) liability 2) what if the outcome is poor, and, mostly, 3) professional standards. The existing relationship is professional-client. For the remodeler to now ask you to step outside that contractual role is unfair to you as well as presumptuous. Say I need my gallbladder out and my son wants to become a doctor. How far do you think I'd get if I asked the surgeon if my kid could scrub in?
$7.00/ hr.
This what you should expext from his parents for the lessons and the time you will lose providing those lessons.
Bad idea to have the kid around. There is surely something he can do, perhaps even a lot he can do. However, when it isn't working out and he starts making excuses to his folks about why you're treating him so badly, it's lose-lose for both sides.
We don't want someone around who isn't used to being on a jobsite since it increases our risk of injury, not to mention it reduces our concentration since we're having to wonder what the new guy is doing. There's no reason to develop a well-oiled machine then have some dork off the street come in to "help."
For a non-professional that has to help, we set aside projects for them to do: shovel dirt from here to there, pull nails from boards in this pile, etc. We make it clear that they aren't working for us, we aren't supervising them, they can't do the jobs while we're there, and any liability and insurance requirements are completely on the homeowner.
It would scare the helll out of me to put an unknown on my liability or WC policy since it doesn't take much to burn down a house or cut off a few fingers--unless someone has a deaf, dumb & blind insurance policy that gives out free money without effecting premiums.
the answer you seem to be looking for is what is it worth, not weather or not you should do it. Honestly, what does job site clean up cost you? At the very most a couple of hours a day, not much, but its worth a lot. We just finished a job where the homeowner/gc cleaned up everything. We were working t&m, so it wasn't a big deal, but it was great leaving a mess and coming back to a pristene worksite everyday. So what, maybe you offer the guy's kid $20-30/day.
But honestly, at the risk of sounding like a parrot, I would just say you checked with your business partner/insurance agency/contractor's board and they said it was a no-go. You'd love to help but it's out of your control.
Good luck,
kh
I read through the first page and a half of replies, so before my eyes glass over let me add my nickel's worth. A client once asked if his 12 year old son could ride in the truck with me to Home Depot. I said no. Another client asked if he could do some of the taping after the drywall went up. I said no. Yet another client asked if he could borrow a couple of my tools when I don't need them. I said no. None of them got offended and they always respected my position. A client has no right imposing this upon you, especially after the contract has been signed. If you need a helper or a cleaner-upper or a subcontractor or anything else, you are perfectly capable of hiring one yourself. Otherwise you are simply creating a position for the sake of filling it. If the customer's son want's to work construction, he should go out and find a job in construction. This situation has conflict written all over it. I'm guessing if you agree to this there is a 90% chance you will regret it. You've been warned.
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FT Job Wanted: Chicago, north side/North Shore burbs.
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=70809.1
Well, I guess some stuff just doesn't translate well in this type of discussion.
But I DO think I have a responsibility to try to nurture young people in the trades. I don't know any more about this particular college kid than anyone else here, but I think I would give him the benefit of the doubt until he proved himself one way or another (IF it were the type of job manual labor could be used on).
I admit to having a soft spot for young people anyway. though.
Dan - see you at the next Fest. We can have a few laughs and talk about sprint cars, huh? Hey! Getting to be that season!
Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
Jim,
I won't be there unfortunately. But I will be thinking of you all. Kinser and Sammy are still winning. Amazing. DanT
I was thinking about this conundrum over breakfast this morning.Kinda reminds me of the rules: Don't sh_t where you eat. and Don't date a woman/ man who lives in the same dorm and on the same floor as you.If it doesn't go well, things may become awkward. Having said that - I think that the issue stems from HOW the father approached you. He tried to tie his son's employment in with a concluded aggreement. Aside from reopening the negotiation, establishing precident and the conflict of interest issue involved, it is the lack of tact which is creating the greatest problem - so far.He felt he had an idea which served his family well. Such is the world of a parent. He neglected presentation when asking what it was worth to you (him) and forgot to consider terms of hiring - after all, why wouldn't someone want to hire his son?I would tell the Dad that you have full employment now but would still like to meet his son. This way you haven't dis'd him (either of them), kept the option open or closed, and maintained control/ autonomy of your company and the project. If and when you do meet the fellow, you may actually want to hire him even if it creates a higher labor burden on you - he may have that high of a potential. He may not. Why close a door that isn't even framed yet?No harm. No foul.FrankieThere he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.—Hunter S. Thompson
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
If you need a helper or a cleaner-upper or a subcontractor or anything else, you are perfectly capable of hiring one yourself. Otherwise you are simply creating a position for the sake of filling it. If the customer's son wants to work construction, he should go out and find a job in construction.
Yup! Exactly.
DG/Builder
Now that I took some time to read through a few more of the replies I think I should clarify. I'm all for giving someone a chance. Anyone who has read a particular previous post of mine knows that I can appreciate what it means to give someone a chance.
I'm not imagining this kid being a slacker, or his dad pulling strings for him. I don't know what the situation is. Maybe the dad planned this before signing the contract, and maybe not. None of this has anything what-so-ever to do with my argument.
What I would have an issue with is the fact that it's the homeowner's son. If, and I reiterate "IF" it doesn't work out, there may be hard feelings. IF the kid is lazy, or has a bad attitude, chances are he got it from the very person who suggested hiring him, who is the one holding the pay, who basically calls all the shots and the one who can nit-pick every little detail and make live miserable for the one who went and fired his son.
It's a big job and IF there are any bad feelings, well let's just say I wouldn't want to be that contractor. It's a pretty big "if". -----------------------------------------------------------
FT Job Wanted: Chicago, north side/North Shore burbs. http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=70809.1
My point is that he either needs an extra employee or he doesn't. If he does, he would have hired one already or been looking. If he doesn't, it's a poor business decision to hire him, even if the kid is God's gift to carpentry.
DG/Builder
We said the figure is zero. No way to evaluate his skills, no time for teaching, cannot risk a workers comp claim if he whacks off his thumb with something, yadda, yadda, yadda.
You gave a valid answer. You haven't met son the and are asked, by a parent, who, I assume you hardly know, to hire him. I think I'd politely tell the parent, "This puts me in a tight spot. I gave you a good price based on the parameters I work within and we agreed on it. I'm sorry."
If later you meet the son and he seems eager and capable nothing would prevent you from hiring him.
I strongly agree with giving youngsters a chance, but not in letting a parent try to coerce you into a blind deal.
A lot of responders in this thread have been discussing the "hire" or "no hire" deal with the college-student son.
It was never proposed as a for-pay deal. It was "how much will you knock off the agreed-upon lump-sum price if Junior 'helps' you guys?"
We said, zero. He's not working for us, with us, or for you, alongside us.
Now, he could be a sleeper. We don't really know. Maybe his two grandfathers are Larry Haun and Gary Katz. He could be Joe Blitzkrieg with bags on, make us all look sick. But we know this family, and we are supposing no, . . . we'll have to teach him what "two by four" means.
What I kind of wonder, is how much of the offer deal Junior was privy to. Was it like, "Oh, by the way, Junior, we are having Andy and Moe do a remodel job this summer, and you'll need to work all day every day they are here, do what they say, and get paid zero."
Edited 3/21/2006 12:49 pm ET by Gene_Davis
It was never proposed as a for-pay deal. It was "how much will you knock off the agreed-upon lump-sum price if Junior 'helps' you guys?"
We got that and it's even worse. That's an illegal barter deal where the kid does work under the table (regardless of what you want to call it) in exchange for making part of the job price unreported income. And you don't get WC on the kid. You need a lawyer just to keep score of how many illegal things it involves.
DG/Builder
You're correct - I assumed there would be something in it for the son.
I think you made the right call. And there's a good chance Junior thinks so too.