Put a proposal together last night and faxed it off.
New house construction…framing….labor only.
As always, I broke down my pricing so he could see what he was getting for the money and use the breakdown to scale back if necessary. Pretty good looking proposal. It totalled out just under $42,000. I then took my price and did a little accounting summary type thing where I simply show the equation of my price, divided by the square footage on the plans, to show a sq foot number. Reason being that this seems to be the only number that some of the dimwits care about. I personally won’t quote sqft numbers but guys seem to want to see the number that way.
I also want them to be able to compare apples to apples with the sqft number that Johnny Pickup Truck quoted them over the phone. Reason being that most of the time, my prices are pretty competitive with local sqft numbers that guys throw out. Sometimes, they’re not even close…. but then again, I actually unroll the plans before I price out a job.
Anywho…… he called. Offered me $27,000. Awesome. We chat and I explain that I couldn’t possibly build his house for that price, but that I’m sure that he will be able to find someone that will. He then tells me that I’m way too expensive and that it’s an easy house. It must have slipped my mind that he’s an electrician who wires frames quite frequently (many of mine) and therefore knows all about framing. So I then remember that he really is the GC he’s trying to be and that the electrician gig must just be a cover.
So I told him that since it’s so easy, he really doesn’t need me, why doesn’t he just frame it himself? I was then told that I was being wise. But I already knew that.
He then asked how long I thought it would take me to frame it. I told him. He then tried to calculate, out loud, in his head, over the phone….. what I’m bringing home a week. And how it’s rediculous.
This kinda sorta struck a nerve with me…. just a bit. For the record….. I don’t bring home $6,000 a week. Really, I don’t.
So I politely dismissed myself from the telephone conversation and told him to give me a shout when he was ready for me to come out and fix his frame for him.
What the he11 goes through people’s heads?
Replies
people get stupid when it comes to money ...
I love when they try to fight ya into taking their job at their guess of what it should cost ...
somehow it'll be yer fault he can't afford it.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
The worst part Jeff.... this is a one shot deal for him. It's his own house. There is no promise of future work. Occasionally I'll trim some fat on a number and turn a little less than the target profit.... IF it's somewhere or for someone where I want to get my foot in the door and let them see what we can do for them.
But I do that at home.... at my desk.... they're never aware of it. And I only do it if it's somewhere I want to be..... never for that frequently unfullfilled promise of more work.
That's another line I just love. When they tell you about all the work they're gonna get you from their friends and family.....all the while hinting that this "promise" of theirs is actually worth something tangible.
Oh really? Your sister's thinking about an addition? Well let me lose my shirt on yours so that I have the opportunity to maybe do the same at your sister's house.
Idiots.
Offered me $27,000.
What, did he think you were stuck in Oklahoma?
Edited 7/25/2005 7:58 pm ET by dustinf
Hey! I'm from Okla. and there isn't a house we Okies can't frame for under $5000. That's how we Okies do it here, ask any outa-stater.
The secret is using nails we get out of tossed demo lumber and lots and lots of Okra mucilage for glue. Not as good as duct tape and bailin wire but who can afford the good stuff.
ROAR!!
Its duct tape and bailing wire here. nuthin' but the best in Texas.
ROTFLMAO
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
did he think you were stuck in Oklahoma?
LoL!
Nope, the tract builders pay $27K, they are charging $42K for the work, though . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
So what did the price pre Sq. Ft. come in at,for your bid?
$10.73...... but why does it matter? Or are you just curious?
Just curious, Sounds like a fair price. Problem with most people have no Clue what it cost to run a business. Thats why I got out of it (frame & side) 10 years ago. Now in this part you have to compete against Pedro who will do it for 70's pricing. With no Ins. or tax payments.
Glad you passed on it !
Tell him I'll do it for $48,900, and not a penny more.
And THEN he can hire you to come in and fix my mistakes.
Good on you for staying solid with your proposal.
Brian,
I know what you mean. We deal with that whenever anyone wants a custom home. We actually had a guy about a year ago that would fax back on change orders what he thought would be a fairer price and "we would still make a healthy profit". Like he knows what is fair in custom home building, he sell vacuums! He has no idea that if we upgrade to an expensive tile and is broken while it is in the garage of the home that he doesn't pay for it, the builder ends up dealing with it.
We recently switched roofers to a company that roofs all over this area. They did the tile roof on the house we did a couple of months ago. At first we thought they were more expensive than the guy we were using, but these guys put the roof on in 1 day (comp about 30 sqs) and it is unreal how professional they are. All the roofers are Mexican (wish I spoke Spanish as these guys really have their act together and I'd like to talk to them) and did the cleanest roofing job I've seen in a long time. They got all the flashing details correct etc. At the end of the day, our jobsite looks more professional because they did a better job, it was done in a day and they cleaned up all their trash. The neighbors think we have our act together because because we don't take a year to get a house built (unless it should take a year :-) )
This guy you are dealing with doesn't know what he is talking about.
Tim,
that's priceless. He faxes back YOUR change orders with His prices. That's just gorgeous. I can't wait to tell that to my buddy. I love it!
Glad to see that someone else has seen, and mentions here, the quality that some of the Mexican crews produce. And the good attitudes!
The underdogs are always the most motivated!"A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel." Robert Frost
A buddy of mine at work has been shopping his room addition around for awhile trying to get lower and lower bids. Against my advice. He finaly got a buddy of his to take it. Now he insists that he's gonna help him in his spare time so he'll have to knock some more off the price.
He's a good guy, but totaly ate up with the money over value issue.
We are all in this together.
http://www.hay98.com/
The funny part is..... I still think I'll get the frame if I want it. He's just got it in his head that he can build this house for "X" dollars.
Right now he's wiring a house for my buddy. My buddy is a GC and when our schedules click, I do his framing. Our schedules didn't click on the last job. Too bad, cuz it was a $65K addition/remodel. That's the framing price... not the whole job.
Anyway, he tried someone new and really had an awful time with them. Typical stuff that I won't get into. In the end, he figures the frame cost him about 10G more than their price after he figures in his time fixing screw ups, time lost on the schedule, and wasted lumber.
That particular framer is my "competition" on this frame. My buddy called me today to forewarn me that the electrician was at the job and was whining to him about my proposal. He told me that he was just playing stupid but spent the whole day complaining about all the money he lost cuz of the lousy framer and how much extra work it's been fixing all these mistakes. Really working him over good. We had a good laugh about it all.
Easy come, easy go. I won't lose sleep about it either way G.
It doesn't sound like it will be worth the lost sleep.
We are all in this together.
http://www.hay98.com/
you'd think that another tradesperson who's actually familiar with the quality of your work would realize that you're worth what you ask.
ESPECIALLY an electrician- just ask one of them to come down on price
got a buddy that's a kitchen installer ...
bitches all the time about cab shops trying to steal from all the young installers ...
he also bitches about his van ... needs this .. needs that ... and it's rusting.
so .. I tell him about my best bud ... a great autobody guy that's also a fantastic mechanic ... and ... he's a Chevy guy ... so he'll get his old chevy van running better than ever.
He says .. sounds great ... I'd love a new paint job ... get rid of some of the rust .. etc.
"maybe he can do a "nice" ... but quick job .... I'd be willing to put $600 into it!"
I said ... Wow .. a whole $600 ... for labor and materials.... whole van patched and painted ... tunr up too boot!
Let me save U the phone call and I'll just laugh in yer cheap a$$ face!
Uh .. how long U think that would take?
Him ... oh .. under a week ...
OK ... U try to make $300/day .... and ... and ....
he never got it.
People get stupid when talking about money.
Jeff
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Hey, how much can a case of spray cans and a couple of cans of STP gas treatment cost?
You have got the right perspective, Brian!
In any negotiation you have already lost if you can't bring yourself to walk away from the job.
Put another way, firing lousy potential customers only raises your reputation in your community."A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel." Robert Frost
Years ago--before the big real-estate boom started up here--I tried to sell my place because I'd finally found another place nearby I thought I'd like better. (Turns out it's much better I didn't make that deal, but that's another story.)
So I listed it with an agent, with an asking price of fifty-nine thou, a target of fifty-five, and an absolute bottom of fifty grand. The agent knew about the target price and my bottom figure. In fact, it was he who suggested the asking price based on those figures.
So the first written offer he brings me back is for $27,300--exactly what the place was assessed for on the parish tax role.
The goniff actually tried to convince me to take it seriously and let him try to dicker it up!
Some people just have to 'get over' on everybody they deal with. It's like a disease. I find that people who are this way are a PITA to deal with on any level. So I try not to deal with them at all.
You did the right thing. Write him outta yer life, bro.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
A realtor here in Georgia told me one time that he was obligated, contractually, to bring any offer that was made. He told me this at a time that I was trying to buy some rental property, and I asked him if he'd take what might be an insulting, low-ball offer. He said he HAD to, if I made the offer.
Bought a nice duplex for $30,000 that way, and the guy even owner financed it ! You never know ! !
Greg
A realtor here in Georgia told me one time that he was obligated, contractually, to bring any offer that was made.
Yeah, that obligation was mentioned to me, too. But it's subject to interpretation as to what constitutes an 'offer'. If the propsect is yakking in the agent's car on the way back and blathers some low-ball figure which is completely off in fantasy-land, the agent is not obliged to go through all the paperwork of filling in an offer form and sending it to the seller for response.
However, a lot of them will insist on doing exactly that...because (1) it gets the propsect down on paper, and that alone is sufficient to turn the corner on a marginal prospect sometimes; and (2) if down the road a ways the seller bitches that the agent hasn't been doing jack for him, it's easier for the agent to argue back if he can point to a sheaf of offers, even if none of them are worth the paper to wipe your bum with....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
"...firing lousy customers only raises your reputation in your community."
Well said young man.
" stick with me and I'll keep you busy for the rest of your life".
A chill runs down my spine.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I kinda the trades' answer to the "cheesy pick-up line".
no such thing as a "cheesy pick up line" dies....
just ones that work and ones that don't work.....:)
Until I read your post I thought that kind of crap only happened to me. Lol.
Maybe he just needs a dictionary - he seems to think tact is spelled: a t t a c k e d.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
If he decides to use you after all, you should tell him it's now 43k.
Aint inflation a bitc#.
tell him I'll do it for 56,800 and you get to frame it anyway...
I'm sure that you people all do wonderful, professional work that is a great value. And I know that there are people out there that are trying their best to squeeze every penny out of every job you do.
But I'd also like to suggest that you, as a group, suffer from a lot of skepticism that us ordinary people have toward the building and construction trades.
I know very few people who have built homes or remodeled who believe that the job was done well or that they were treated well by the people who did the work. We've seen things like:
- people not showing up for appointments
- employees showing up drunk or stoned
- installing the wrong brick on the front of a house, then saying, "Oh well, it's too late. Live with it."
- installing the wrong fireplace, then saying, "Oh well, it's too late. Live with it." (different builder)
- installing shingles over bare plywood
- installing a hardwood floor that buckled all over the place within a few months of installation
- installing a concrete driveway that sank and cracked within six months of installation
- a contractor who did all of the demolition on a large remodel, then disappeared
- a builder who built several houses in a subdivision, then refused to answer his customers' calls when serious problems started showing up. Several of the people got together a lawsuit to try to get him to fix the problems. These are $300-600K houses.
As far as pricing goes, I have a neighbor who is remodeling her house. She invited our area's largest remodeling contractor to talk to her about it. After listening to what she wanted, he said that the project would cost $170K. When she said that this was a ridiculous price, he immediately said that she was right, when he thought more about it, he thought it would really cost $140K. She went with another long established builder in our area, who did the project for $120K.
I could go on. The things that I mentioned weren't done by "Johnny Pickup Truck" but by builders and tradespeople that were large and established and/or by people my friends and family had gotten what they thought were solid references for.
I'm getting ready to gut the back half of my house and remodel, and I'm doing it all except for a few things I have no choice about because I trust my own work more than a stranger, even with references.
I know that there are people who are trying to cheat you out of your well-earned profits, but there are others who don't trust that you're giving them a reasonable price, not because of anything you've done, but because they've been burned before by contractors in lots of different ways. Just because you know you do good work at a fair price doesn't mean they do, too. And they have no way of comparing apples to apples. Are you using the same quality of materials? Is everything you do up to a particular standard, or do you cut lots of corners where homeowners and inspectors won't see them? Will you really be around if there's a problem later, and more importantly, will you fix the problem?
So whether you like the word or not, you've got a marketing problem. You need to find some way of helping customers, many of whom don't know much about what you do, that you're worth the price you want to charge. If you can't convince people, that's your fault, not theirs.
Paulan,
>>So whether you like the word or not, you've got a marketing problem.
That is so true.
But we have to deal with it one client at a time,
and,
we have to pick our battles.
And,
We have to 'compete' with the admonition to always get three estimates and choose the cheapest, 'cuz no matter what contractor you choose, you get the same thing.'
Just like McDonalds.
The correct admonition is to always investigate three contractors. . . Nothing about cost.
NOT.
SamT
..."I know that there are people who are trying to cheat you out of your well-earned profits, but there are others who don't trust that you're giving them a reasonable price, not because of anything you've done, but because they've been burned before by contractors in lots of different ways..."
I just wanted to say- A really well spoken post. You see a lot of posts here expressing indignation that someone attempted to [GASP!!!] negotiate on price!
On my planet, everything must be negotiated. This is how business is done. You even have to sell your skills, and convince people of the value you are providing. Around here, the demand for construction-related services is so great that I suppose contractors can just name their price.
Where might that be anyway?? There's a spot here for you to fill out some basic information so we'd know.......If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
csnow has been here for three years or so and lives in MA
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
But I'd also like to suggest that you, as a group, suffer from a lot of skepticism that us ordinary people have toward the building and construction trades.
This begs the question: Why is it that you 'ordinary people' have a lot of skepticism toward the building and construction trades?
It's not enough, IMO, to come forth with a litany of botched jobs such as you did, because botching and cheating occurs in pretty much every métier I can think of. Human beings screw up. That's one of our defining criteria. Automotive mechanics, for example. Heck, there are even speciality organizations (such as the APA here in Québec) which send in 'undercover' agents to check out mechanics and catch them in the act of screwing the customer.
So contractors and mechanics are distrusted by the ordinary joe, as well they should be, dammit, because 99% of them are a bunch of screw ups or cheats. Everybody knows that! Ask anyone. Ask your BIL. He'll tell ya all sorts of horror stories. Those dirty dogs are always taking advantage of the poor, innocent, ordinary guy's complete lack of knowledge about what they know best....
But consider this: the 'ordinary guy' also tends to have a complete lack of knowledge of lots of other fields, like medecine and engineering, just to name two at random. But do we trust doctors and engineers? Doggone right we do! We've been trained since birth to consider doctors as half a degree removed from god, and engineers as not far behind that. I work half the year in construction; the other half of the year I am a professional rescue worker, dispensing high-level first aid and working on the fringes of the medical profession. Over the years, I've gotten to know quite a few docs personally well enough to hear the medical screw-up stories you'll never hear. Clamps and tubes left inside the patient when the surgeon closes. Drug errors, wherein the wrong prescription is given to a patient through paperwork shuffling. Docs showing up drunk or stoned on drugs they prescribe themselves. Overexposure to x-rays until the guy's teeth oughta glow.... Believe me, bud, there's no difference in the ratio of competence between tile-setters and bone setters. There are probably as many lousy plastic surgeons as there are lousy gyprock tapers. There are likely an equal number of rotten internists as there are rotten plumbers. And there's probably about the same percentage of competent neurologists as there are master electricians....
But nobody on the outside believes that...because the medical profession keeps its lip zipped and stonewalls anyone who asks unpleasant questions. If, god forbid, one of them should screw up, well, who's gonna judge that? Only another professinal, of course. Nobody else could be competent to do the judging. So what's considered a 'screw-up' is subject to insider control.
Try sometime to find a professional willing to state flat out that another member of the fraternity has goofed up a procedure. (If you succeed in that, try to climb Everest without oxygen next; it's about the same level of challenge....)
OTOH, when something goes wrong on a building--and of course things do--everybody and his brother consider themselves competent to judge the contractor or remodeler and his work. Without having any technical competence in the field. Without having any knowledge of the techniques or materials involved. Without having any expertise in environmental factors, code restrictions and requirements, or any of the rest of that stuff. I mean, hey, that big goof didn't hafta go to college to learn that stuff--how hard can it be? I mean, it ain't rocket science, right? If something broke--it must be that lousy cheatin' contractor's fault. Tried, convicted, and condemned in one thirty-second tirade.
What it boils down to is the tool-users at the mercy of the tool-losers.
What's even worse--we do it to ourselves. Listen to some of the comments on this board about the so-called 'Johnny Pick-up Truck' type guy. I'll wager the percentage of good craftsmen who could fall under that nasty rubric probably isn't much lower than that found among licensed contractors. (And I think maybe there's a few guys who now have their license but have forgotten how they got started back in the bad old days....)
The fact is, the ratio of competent to incompetent is generally pretty good here in the 'First World'. As you said, it's essentially a problem of perception for certain trades like ours.
So what's the solution?
At the contractor's level, I think it's looking at what other professions have done and trying to model a complaint-resolution system on one of theirs. And then work to get it 'officially' recognized by provincial or state authorities.
At the consumer level, it's doing some self-education, at least on the basics of what you're asking someone else to do for you. I think anybody who blindly places trust in some professional--licensed, certified, degree-holding, or not--doesn't have a full-bore bitch coming if it turns out blooey later on. The consumer bears some of the responsibility, too. Responsibility for understanding at least the basics of what he is buying. Responsibility for not engaging a contractor who isn't competent to handle the work the consumer wants done. Responsibility, finally, for managing his own life in a knowledge-based manner. Living one's life by waving around a Gold Card like Harry Potter's magic wand isn't my idea of being a responsible member of society....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
"I think anybody who blindly places trust in some professional--licensed, certified, degree-holding, or not--doesn't have a full-bore bitch coming if it turns out blooey later on. The consumer bears some of the responsibility, too"Well said! Halaluyah!! Can I have an amen!!!There's a local builder around here who started out doing kitchens and then thought he could build houses. It got so bad that when the super came around and passed out checks, everybody hopped in their vehicles for a mad rush to the bank. Twelve checks handed out, maybe 8 got cashed. The owner was parking his Mercedes inside the garage so it couldn't be repossesed.He finally went out of business.But............. he popped back up and is trying it again. He screwed a lot of customers and subs.One of my pet peeves: If you're going to pay someone $500,000.00 do build your dream house, you better god dam know well who you're giving your money to. Rod
Hey Master...you don't live here in Okie by chance do you?? Sounds like a contractor I (very) briefly worked for here, right down to the mad dash to the bank.One week he didn't have the money to pay his crew, he told us this as he hopped in his travel trailer (Condo on wheels) and headed out for a week of bike racing with his son to Mexico. Wanna guess how much work he got out of that crew the following week????If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Open your eyes, 99.99% of things that happen to YOU, are YOUR own fault.
The world is full of competent contractors. Just because you think he makes to much money, you hire someone else. Then all the sudden every contractor is a scam.
It's people like you that are ruining the building trades. If nobody gave bad contractors money, they would go out of business, and get a job as an "expert" at Home Depot. Hire a good contractor, and they will begin to prosper. Instead, you "trust" yourself to DIY.
What it comes down to is money. If you were truly willing to spend the money, you could get the work done right. Yet you decide to DIY, and save the money. Magazines, TV, and big boxes are convincing people to DIY, because it puts more money in their pockets. Then people accept sub standard level of work, because they did it themselves. Now, all the sudden caulking is a tool, and people screw together stud walls. The "right way" gets thrown out the door, and cheaper/ easier replaces it.
Yet, it's not the homeowners fault, it's the big bad contractor who's out to rip them off.
What a joke.
Edited 7/26/2005 4:27 pm ET by dustinf
If you read my post again, you'll see that the problems I noted were ALL with contractors who had been around for a while and had references who were willing to say that they'd done a good job. So how does one hire a "good contractor"? That's the problem I was trying to point out - that there is no good way to tell ahead of time whether someone is going to do a quality job.
I would never say or imply that all contractors are out to rip people off, only that some are good, some are bad, some are honest, some are not, and it's hard to impossible to tell ahead of time.
And for the record, last time I checked, it wasn't illegal to do my own work. I've replaced roofs and floors, I got my electrical license so I could do my electrical work, I've sided houses, etc. The only things I haven't tackled are pouring concrete and plumbing. The projects I've done have turned out very nicely, thank you. Don't you think it's a bit arrogant of you to assume that the only people who are competent to do work on a house are the "professionals"?
Here's my take on the situation...in my opinion there are many ways to tell a good contractor from a bad one. references are great, but then you're dealing with a previous customer's knowledge of what "good" is.The majority of todays homeowners aren't as smart as you when it comes to basic home repairs, that remark referencing your comments about being able to wire, etc.The Big Box/DIY craze is hurting the trades, and for all the repairs I've had to go back on and fix what the homeowner thought he could do would fill volumes.But, with all that said, here's my take (Even though I'm a know it all NY'er) you can take this for what ever you think it's worth.1st-Does the contractor sound professional on the phone, commit to a scheduled meeting and then keep it? If you've gotta call a dozen times as follow up for the 1st meeting, either he's too busy to do the work and should say so, or he's not well organized.
Does he listen to what you have planned? Does he offer constructive advice or does he tell you it's not gonna happen that way? There's a sure sign right there, even if the potential customers requests are ludicrous, he'll still have advice to offer as to a solution, not a flat out no.Does he get back with the customer (you) when he says he's going to? With a quote or just a follow up? If not he should at least call to tell you he's delayed instead of leaving you hanging.When he does produce the quote for the work, is it detailed and organized or just lumped into one big price?? Does he schedule a table of allowances on the major items if a remodel or new construction? Does he explain the scope of work (quote) or just throw it at you and say to look it over and get back to him? Does he ask at that time if you have any questions and does he follow up a couple days later with that same question?If he gives you references..have you taken the time to go and actually look at the work performed? You have some obligation in this as well and if he's given references, use them to full advantage.Another suggestion would be to forget about the hype of the Big Boxes and the quality of the majority of the stuff you see there. Are you looking for an upscale remodel or just something to dress the place up? You'll never get Lexus quality at the BB's, so toss their pricing out the window. Look at some real outlets for whatever it is you want to do, it's pricier but it'll give you some idea what the real quality stuff is all about.Does he offer cheap materials?? Meaning, is he afraid to tell you he's getting stuff at BB's or is he naming names??Chew on this for a few minutes and get back to me after reading...hope it helps......
If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
I think that you have asked one very good question, how do you hire a good contractor?
As a contractor I am constantly hiring contractors to do work for us. We almost always get satisfactory work done by them. The main reason is that once we find a reliable person, we continue to hire him. Almost as important is how we deal with the money. Once we have identified a competent subcontractor, we do not try to squeeze every nickel out of the transaction. If we ask for a price, we let him know that we need that price for a guideline for our bid but that we can be flexible about the final cost as long as the job is done to the standards that we demand. The sub knows that he is not bidding against anyone else and because of this he gives a realistic price that will protect us. The sub bills us for what it costs him (plus oh and profit) and is happy with the arrangement.
This is not the situation that Brian was describing. Is a high price a guarantee of good work? Of course not. But any company that is going to be around long enough to hold accountable is going to be in the higher end of the price range. Why would construction be any different than any other business?
To get a good contractor, you have to ask a lot of people and listen carefully to what they say. That is what I do, year in and year out.
Given the recent threads on DYI vs pro this post seemed to stick in my mind. I am getting ready to build, and am starting the search for a GC. >I think that you have asked one very good question, how do you hire a good >contractor?
>As a contractor I am constantly hiring contractors to do work >for us. We almost always get satisfactory work done by them. The main >reason is that once we find a reliable person, we continue to hire him.
Look at this from the HO perspective. You have one shot to get it right, and you will be living with the results for the next 10-20 years. It would be different if I were going to have built 3 or 4 houses in that time (and sell the bad results to someone else). I could find a good contractor and stick with him.
If you had to keep on every hire that you had for 10 years, how different would your selection process be? The HO is in a bind because he has imperfect knowledge of the quality of the contractors. Do the bad contractors put their disasters on the referral list? >To get a good contractor, you have to ask a lot of people and listen >carefully to what they say. That is what I do, year in and year out.
I imagine during that time you have had some clunkers. Where did the selection process break down? Have you become better at it over time?
Erich
"that there is no good way to tell ahead of time whether someone is going to do a quality job."
you've got to be kidding.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Don't you think it's a bit arrogant of you to assume that the only people who are competent to do work on a house are the "professionals"?
Call it arrogance if you wish. I take it very personal when someone attacks a profession that I've worked at all my life. That is 10+ years of sweat and blood. I hate the fact that homeowners are arrogant enough to assume that they are capable of doing work camparable to a pro. The finish product MAY be comparable, but not the time or effort involved. Time and effort is what we charge for. That is what we sell.
I work 60 plus hrs a week in this profession just to make a decent living. What am I supposed to think when you say you can do it just as well? I pay 14% fica, how much do you pay? 7%. I've NEVER had health insurance, I've never had paid vacation. I've had 5 surgerys on one foot, 1 finger reattached, all while working on someone's house that I never met.
When you attack contractors you attack me. Anyone that has been ripped off, made the decision to give the person the money. PERIOD. End of story. The contractor never put a gun to anyones head. I don't care if it was the biggest remodeling firm in the country, the HOMEOWNER made the decision to give them the money.
Give me 5 minutes with any contractor, and I'll tell you if they are worth a dam or not.
Edited 7/26/2005 7:48 pm ET by dustinf
May I ask why it's acceptable to attach your customers but offensive to attack contractors?
I'm not attacking my customers. My customers have a trust in me, that I've earned. It's not easy to earn the trust of people. Especially when their house and money are involved. I have customers that don't even ask "how much". They want something done, they call, I do it, send a bill, and they pay. No questions asked.
If you think that I disagree with you about dishonest contractors, I don't. They affect me, much more than they affect you. I spend countless hours with people, just so they feel comfortable enough to give me a chance, let alone a check.
Do I think you personally are a hack? Probably not, but most major DIY projects that I've seen are half azzed or half done.
It's the venue you choose to bring your thoughts to light, nothing personal but this isn't exactly the right place to come and complain about contractors in general.
Another problem is H/O's that do not realize they received a quality job, they nit pick every little thing along the course of a given job, "problems" that may or may not occur on most jobs, and the contractor would normally take care of. Before the contractor even has a shot at fixing what ever the received problem is Mr Trigger happy homeowner has to make a mountain out of mole hill.
All the while the h/o is complaining and being whiny the contractor gets irritated himself and it becomes an adversarial situation which never ends well. End of the job comes everything is peachy, however the homeowner still feels like they got shafted and if it weren't for "their watchful eye" they'd have been screwed by the ever dishonest contractor.
or simply h/o's having un-reasonable expectations, crawling around on the floor looking at baseboards or walls from 2 inches away and noticing miniscule imperfections etc.
I hope I saw the last of one such customer today
they nit pick every little thing along the course of a given job, "problems" that may or may not occur on most jobs, and the contractor would normally take care of
The one that happens on every kitchen is the door adjustment. Say I hang the wall cabinets during the day, then before the end of the day, I'll attach all the doors. If I don't adjust the doors before I go home. The first question I get the next day is "Can you fix the doors?". EVERY time. Do people really think I'm going to leave the doors on their $50,000 cabinets crooked?.
If Frenchy or Blue were here they would be sure to point out that when customers ask us to drop our price it's our opportinity to differentiate the service we deliver over what they or their neighbor the remodeling contractor can.Why shouldn't the prospect ask us about our pricing? And why should we care if they do? If we are truly giving a fair price for the work to be done then we should able to express that to the prospect. It is called "making the sale".If the leads are qualified sufficiently we won't be wasting time with those who are only shopping for price.I'm not saying that I don't waste a lot of time but I do realize that the deficiency is more my lack of skill in asking the right questions with a lead rather than their cheap nature.Remember the beltloops. Take control, be a professional, and have an answer ready for every question.Don't give them a reason not to be ecstatic for being lucky enough to pay your premium rates for quality work and service.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Pricing.
I think the issue of pricing and negotiations is cultural and regional.
In general, NYers negotiate prices for most everything everyday.It's expected. But that same attitude expressed in the south is usually seen as disrespectful and an affront to the knowledge and experience of the contractor.
At least this is my experience.
Easy there Dustin...I agree with what you say completely and I've been accused of being too vocal or too whiney or too arrogant myself. I feel just as strongly as you do regarding this.Just to point things out, one professional to another, the last comment in your post was to give you 5 minutes and you'd know. I agree there as well, but our original poster of this thread doesn't have the experience you and I have in this profession so he doesn't know what exactly to look for. I think this was the basis of his question to begin with.He may not have been completely able to choose the right words to address his question, but then again, he is a DIY'er with limited experience and doesn't know exactly what to look for like we do. I'm not knocking your responses or agreeing with his original question, in their entirety.I got a bit mad at him as well when I read the original post, but I tried to think it through and see it through his eyes rather than my own.....If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Help us out dustinf,what questions do you ask in those five minutes? What are you looking for to tell if the contractor is reliable and good?Not being a smart guy, really curious and want to learn.Thanks,
Steve
I can't give you specifics. It's just a look. I don't know how to explain it.
They don't REALLY know about something, they just know what somebody told them about it.
>>what questions do you ask in those five minutes?
If all you're goona spend is five munutes screening a contractor then you've it coming to ya. Get off yer butt and go look at his work
Dustinf,
Get a grip dude! You sound bitter and unhappy with your line of work and your client base. This bitterness some how justifies your nasty attitude toward people you don't even know!
I'm a DIY guy, I have tackled many different projects over the years, some of it was damm hard work, most of which have turned out with professional results. Yeah and I'm arrogant enough to say it. I have also hired my share of trades men too, some good, some not so good. And your right, they were my choice.
Judging by your description of the "arrogant customer who thinks he can compare to a professional" I can just imagine what our first meeting would be like...
I'll bet your one of those guy's who show up with the "my way or the high way" mentality, then proceed to explain why every thing I want to do is wrong. I cut guy's like you loose in the first 10 minutes. No sense wasting both our time.
-----you said----
I work 60 plus hrs a week in this profession just to make a decent living. What am I supposed to think when you say you can do it just as well? I pay 14% fica, how much do you pay? 7%. I've NEVER had health insurance, I've never had paid vacation. I've had 5 surgerys on one foot, 1 finger reattached, all while working on someone's house that I never met. ------
If your working that hard, and your that unhappy, maybe YOU should make another choice!
Bill
Get a grip dude! You sound bitter and unhappy with your line of work and your client base. This bitterness some how justifies your nasty attitude toward people you don't even know!
Your're way off base. paulan's post struck a nerve. I just said what most contractors think. Even the good guys. Search for some of my reply's, you will see, I'm not nasty or bitter.
I wasn't complaining about my line of work. I was just trying to explain the effort involved in making a living in the trades. Read the posts by pro's here, this is a labor of love. I'm just trying to explain why I take things so personally. Read the threads about staying cool in the summer, how many DIY'ers posted? If it's 100 degrees outside, DIYers can stay inside, and their family's still eat. Pro's are out in it, earning a living.
I don't understand, why I'm considered arrogant and ignorant. When someone makes arrogant, and ignorant statements about me, and people in my trade. I try to defend people I don't even know, all the sudden I'm an ignorant jerk. Reread paulan's post, and your own post. Both are full of insults. Insulting me, and people that are in my trade.
I'll say this one more time. A DIY project can turn out as good as professional, BUT most do not.
Edited 7/27/2005 7:42 am ET by dustinf
Last year my sparky gave my number to a real estate agent he knew.
The agent was a long term customer of his and wanted to build 3 small 2 bed houses as old folks digs.
He called and then sent plans. I did a rough work out and reckoned the labour ( he wanted to supply all materials ) would come to approx 25k.....and not a huge profit in it at that.
He told me he could get each one done for 7......yup, seven k. I had to laugh. I told him outright that he was gonna get what he paid for.
I worked out that a helper over the time needed to build each one would use up 7 grand. Then there is overhead, tax etc. I still havent paid myself a bean. Whadda dork.
My sparky didnt get anything either, he went with a lowball.
I dont play such dumb games with people. No like my prices, fine. I dont drop them at all, ever.
As for this "it aint so hard", or "I coulda done that" crap, if so, why dont they? Like they could take out their own appendix as well I spose?
Whatever it was.................I didnt do it.
I just said what most contractors think. Even the good guys.
Wrong.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Wrong.
I stand corrected.
Bill,
>>most of which have turned out with professional results
But, that does not mean that the projects were accomplished in a professional manner.
You spent way too much time doing many of the tasks.
You had to redo too many of them.
You over bought material too many times.
You bought the wrong material.
You used the wrong tools.
You used inefficient techniques.
You did not use all the proper safety equipment.
In short, you wasted a lot of money, time, and natural resources.
That being said, you are very happy with the results and that is what counts the most.
You can't compare DIY to professional work.
Hi Sam,
But, that does not mean that the projects were accomplished in a professional manner.
You spent way too much time doing many of the tasks.
Compared to a guy who does it for a living? Absolutely!
You had to redo too many of them.
Actually not true
You over bought material too many times.
GUILTY as charged
You bought the wrong material.
Many times I bought better materials than the trades man could offer and stay competitive
You used the wrong tools.
WRONG!
You used inefficient techniques.
If I was charging for my time? Absolutely!
You did not use all the proper safety equipment.
GUILTY
In short, you wasted a lot of money, time, and natural resources.
I understand your point of view
That being said, you are very happy with the results and that is what counts the most.
YUP!
You can't compare DIY to professional work.
My opinion? A Pro is some one who makes his living by applying his craft in return for money.
He has overhead, insurance, weather, slow paying customers, scheduling, warranty, and countless other issues to contend with, that guy's like me won't ever know.
I seriously doubt I could balance all that stuff and not starve to death!
But I'll stand my ground, a DIY can get professional results.
This place is great!
Bill
Bill,
>>better materials than the trades man could offer and stay competitiveT.h.a.t d.o.e.s n.o.t c.o.m.p.u.t.e.
We don't sell material. We sell a finished product.
The guy that provides walnut burl trim is just as competitive in his market as the guy that provides fingerjointed paint grade is in his.
Granite countertops vs formica; different markets, no competition between the two.
According to Forbes, 95%, IIRC, of successful businesses fall in to two camps; Walmart and Mercedes.
Cheap as possible or as high a quality as possible, and there is no competition between the two.
Nobody wins who says "I'm going to be average."
SamT
Sam,
Maybe a regional thing? but I see it in my area (Wilmington De.) quite often. When we had our roof done, one fellow actually didn't want to price out the job using 1/2 4 ply. Said he only uses 7/16 OSB to keep the price down.
When mom and dad needed to replace their HVAC I asked Specifically for TRANE equipment. One gentleman told them Trane is to expensive and he can't make any money installing it.....
Some of our friends had similar experiences.
It seams like a lot of the contractors here are trying to cut each others throat, nasty business!
We did end up finding a good roofer, and a really good HVAC outfit, but it took some doing. Neither one was cheep, but definitely worth it.
Bill,I think the contractor's that you're talking with lack salesmanship.They're scared to think that they could charge more and still stay busy.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
yeah! That's the part I don't get. Would'nt most contractor's welcome a customer with an eye toward using better quality materials?
"contractors trying to cut each others throats"
To further Dinosaur's apt analogy, if doctors in this country were allowed to run a fly-by-night operation like some unscrupulous tradesmen, or hire illegal and cheap immigrants, things in medicine would be W A Y dfferent. Why they'd try to cut each others throats.
Imagine you're having surgery to repair a broken leg after you fell off yer roof. Your doctor, obviously a good businessman, decides to not hire his competent colleague, but to hire the cheap illegal surgical assistant while no one's looking.
But, you say, he can't do that. You're right. Only in the trades and a few other places does this exist. Why? Because the doctor has the backing of and participates in, the mighty AMA, whose board actually controls the number physicians who graduate from med school every year. Which also has a mighty powerful effect on the incomes of these doctors, and tends to breed a clannish, insular protection against all criticisms.
All right gang, I started this thread on a topic that vaguely resembles the current topic that the thread has morphed into. Still a good topic, but now that's it's changed a bit, I've got a bit more to say.
Particularly to the defensive overzealous DIY'er types.....
You know who I am? I'm the guy you drive by in your air conditioned car and look at and say to yourself, "Dammm, you couldn't pay me enough to do that guy's job today". Yep, that's me. And I'm out there doing that job everyday. I'm the guy who gets to stand under 2500 lb beams as the crane sets them to make sure they land where they're supposed to and don't kill somebody. I'm the guy who has to shovel three feet of snow off the lumber pile in the morning before you even hit the remote start button to warm up your car. I'm the guy who gets to work in 100 degree weather with a dewpoint of 70 in the summer and at or below 0 in the winter.... cuz both schedules and weather don't ever stop coming.
I'm the guy who's feet currently look like hamburger from being wrapped in two layers of socks and a pair of leather boots for 13 or 14 hours a day. I'm the 32 year old man who currently has a nice looking diaper rash from wearing a toolbelt in the heat and humidity 10 or 11 hours a day for 5 or six days a week. I've got hands that look about 20 years older than the rest of me. I've got shins with more scar tissue than skin. I've had a sunburn for about a month and a half now and plan to keep it for at least another month or two. I see a chiropractor twice a week and I've got two compressed disks in my back that have no plans on decompressing on their own in the near future.
And I wouldn't have it or want it any other way.
You give me a set of plans and I give you a detailed proposal on company letterhead. Not an estimate, not a bid, but the actual number you will need to write in your checkbook register should you make the right decision and hire me. Along with this proposal I will write you a letter noting any inconsistencies I've found on your plans so that they can be worked out before I start. Why? Cuz my sawzall makes an awful lot of money and you don't want to see it have to come out. Should you choose to have me build your house we will enter into a detailed construction agreement (aka contract) that protects both of us and gets everyone's expectations on the same page.
I will show up at your house on the previously agreed upon day with just under a quarter of a million dollars in tools and equipment to build your house in a safe, timely, professional manner. You will already have the papers in your hand that reassure you that the men and women working on your house under my watch are properly protected by worker's compensation won't expose you to any risk. You will already have the papers in hand that show the million and a half dollars of liability insurance I have on YOUR home. I will then be there every day the weather lets us until your house is completed. I will be there to hold your hand and answer your questions.... why? Because I can. Because I've been here before. Because there's not too many situations that can arrive in framing a house that I haven't already dealt with and conquered or have the resources to research and overcome.
And I'll do it all with a smile.
And yet you guys still go to Home Depot and buy yourself that Ryobi cordless combo pack, toss it in the back seat of your SUV and say, "Ain't nothing to it". You go and lay yourself a Pergo floor or frame in your basement in a climate controlled environment on your days off and all the sudden you think we're all crooks cuz this is just monkey business.
You're thinking what I do and what you've done are in the same ballpark, but I'm hear to tell you brothers and sisters.....
You ain't even playing the same sport.
I'm not lumping all DIY'ers into this, but a specific type. The type that watches these bonehead tv shows or attends a 1/2 hour Home Depot clinic and thinks they can build a house. The type that thinks cuz my hands are dirty I oughta be living in poverty. If this description doesn't fit you..... then I'm not talking about you..... so untie yer undies and relax.
But even worse than the overzealous DIY'er...... back to the original post of mine..... is a fellow contractor who doesn't place any value on what it is I do. That's just insulting. Someone wants to haggle a price a bit.... sure.... I'll play along. But rest assured... you beat me down on the price and I'm going to charge you for every bead of caulk and every nail I put into that frame. But even still... that's totally different than offering someone about 60% of the price they've taken the time to work up for you, and offering it in an arrogant "take it or leave it" type manner.
A classic Brian, they should put this on the wall in the Tavern.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
You ain't even playing the same sport.
Perfect! ... all them other words too ....
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Bingo.
I'm a fairly accomplished DIY, especially plumbing, painting, electrical and radiant heat...even did some framing in younger years, but would NEVER take on framing, in particular, as a DIY project..for exactly the reasons you mention in this last post.
Also never dicker on price once I find a decent sub (framing, roofing, excavation, major electrical).
well said, and I had to laugh about the "Ryobi combo cordless pack".
It's for that mentality alone that I no longer do custom cabinet installs for a homeowner that wants to help. "Hey, let me get my Black n Decker Firestorm drill!"
>>well said, and I had to laugh about the "Ryobi combo cordless pack".
>>It's for that mentality alone that I no longer do custom cabinet installs for a homeowner that wants to help. "Hey, let me get my Black n Decker Firestorm drill!"
I thought I was going to lose my Hitachi impact driver last week. I was helping my timber frame contractor on Saturday, installing screws into SIPS for the walls and roof. They all had heavy 18V Makita and DeWalt drills, and my little 12V Hitachi was twice as fast and a quarter the effort. Finally one guy pitched his drill off the roof down to me and asked to use the Hitachi. I had all three of 'em threatening to steal it by the end of the day.
Sometimes it works in reverse. I'm a total tool junkie, so I usually have whatever someone needs - an odd size bit, a saw blade, a fish tape, an extra drill, etc.
Please don't mis-understand me.
There is a big difference in tool quality between a professional line and the "Harry Homeowner" line of tools. A few companies make both, many make one or the other. Ryobi is junk, quite frankly. Same with Black n Decker, and some other brands. Hitachi, however, makes professional tools. I'm glad you've purchased a quality drill.
Some homeowners/customers think like Brian said, that because they've purchased tools somehow they're suddenly transformed into professional contractors. My response, unequivocally, No-Freakin-Way. I have paid too many dues, spent years in school learning what I know, then started as a grunt on job sites and in shops to know what I know.
As the lady who complained about price was told by her electrician: "Ma'am you're not paying me 80$ an hour to turn a screw, you're paying me to know which screw to turn."
Your statement >> No-Freakin-Way. I have paid too many dues, spent years in school learning what I know, then started as a grunt on job sites and in shops to know what I know. << reminded me of something that I'll bet 90% of DIY?s don't realize. That >> started as a grunt on job sites << People watch the DIY shows, buy some tools, read a few books, come here to learn more stuff, practice their skills by building a shed and a deck, and they think they are there...
The thing is that even the "grunt" who is in the trench with the shovel or who is carrying 180 2x4s up to the 2nd story is learning things (although may it be slowly) that are not available anywhere except on the jobsite.
The guy with the shovel might be learning that 'that' color dirt is easier to dig when it's damp, or that it's easier to glue the top piece of pipe in first. And he might already know that if I connect those drain tiles 'that' way, they might come apart when we dump the gravel on them.
The guy who is carrying the 180 2x4s have already learned that if he stacks them 'there' they will be in the way sooner than later. He also might have learned the hard way that if he stack the sheathing like 'that' and it gets rained on, it will be more likely to get damaged and be harder to install and result in a degraded end product.
Another isolated example... I remember 25 years ago when I was working for a brick layer - he taught me the best way to park a wheelbarrow when you are loading it up with a bunch of heavy stuff...
These are some small examples of some minor but all so numerous things one purchases when he hires a pro. Not to mention skill in handling tools that comes only from years of use, knowing what works long them and what doesn't by actually seeing what goes wrong, know what is a waste of time or overbuilding through experience, business practices, etc, etc.
So, when the DIY is busy doing his project, fumbling with a cord on a circular saw trying to keep it out of the way, and thinking he is just as good as a pro, more often than not, he's just fooling himself. Matt
I learned that wheelbarrow trick from an old time mason. Simple, but smart.
Years later, had a young hot shot working for me. I showed him the trick, but he just kept on doing things the hard way.
He didn't last long.
The same lady who complains about the cost of an electrician will pay $80 to have her hair done and not think twice.
I love it whe we work for people who own two new SUV's and maybe a nice jazzy sports car, live in a 4,000 sq. ft. house with three baths and they want to do their own painting to save money. Last job like that, I saw where the lady had started to paint the music room where we'd refinished the hardwood floors. She hadn't progressed any from the last time we were there four months earlier, and she had spattered the trim paint all over the walls and so forth. I told her we also did painting, but she didn't jump at the opportunity to have us do it.
How are you telling us all this at 2:15 on a Wednesday afternoon? Are the pros all running wireless networks for their laptops while sitting out in the "100 degree weather with a dewpoint of 70"? ;-)Edit, Yes, the Ryobi line is spot on.
Edited 7/27/2005 4:55 pm ET by 6milessouth
Ever thought of taking up 'preaching'??
Amen,brother!Did'nt miss nuttin'....even the diaper rash :-)Excuse me now, gotta go tend to mine now.hehe
Careful now...you keep talking like that....you're gonna get targeted.....I agree with you 110%.Gave out a proposal over the weekend for a small remodel, H.O. wanted all high end stuff, new cabinets, top end laminate flooring, granite tiling, all laid down in this beyotch pattern....lots of demo work and then the remodel itself....over 10 grand in materials and thought the labor price should have been 2000.00....not 2K less..2K total. Brought the contract back home and filed it away, into the round file that is....If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
and filed it away, into the round file that is....
I hope you're kidding. I keep copies of all my proposals, cuz some times they call back in 3-4 months and want to talk about it again. And the only thing I hate more than working up a proposal ... is doing the same one again cuz I can't find it.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Everything gets filed in the computer, even if I do toss the paper copy......I always save one to disc in case the puter crashes....have received calls about old bids and a few years ago I did just write them up and toss 'em after 30 days if no response..now I save them.....it may come in handy some day but this guy was just way out in left field on what he thought he should be paying........If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
That is probably the best post I've ever read. Nice work Bryan. Anytime I run out of work, I'm coming to MA, Red Sox will become MY team and I will shovel that snow for you :-)
I'm glad you replied. I was driving home about 20mins ago, thinking "I'm to tired to get in a pissing match over the internet". Then I come to find that you already squashed it. Thanks.
Another Attaboy! Your post should be required reading for anyone out there involved in residential construction, whether a customer, contractor, or sub. Excellent points.
A pretty well articulated summary of life as a professional builder; Taunton should approach you about writing a guidebook for DYI's that might educate them beyond HGTV, This Old House, Home Depot seminars, et. al.
I truly appreciate an honest overview of our chosen proffession from a fellow "knuckle dragger."
Thanks! Made my day.
Pretty good post. Personaly I go by a framing crew and go cool! but I'm weird. cold call commission salesman or garbage collector, that's two jobs I wouldn't want.
BTW. about that rash. You have to go heavy on the baby powder, just go nuts with it in the morning. Get the stuff that's mostly or all cornstarch. It's better to stand on a towel when you "load up" I've got tile floors and found out the hard way that it makes em real slick. Bust your azz good about four in the morning.
We are all in this together.
http://www.hay98.com/
Try Nizoral on the rash, shampoo, but works like a Charm!
I don't have a rash, I powder like a madman.
We are all in this together.
http://www.hay98.com/
To much information!
When we're on the road working we have to double up on rooms. I like to leave big white foot prints all over the room after I get out of the shower. Just something to scare the other guy with.
We are all in this together.
http://www.hay98.com/
Edited 7/27/2005 9:42 pm ET by Gunner
You guys are wearing the wrong fibers.
Cotton sucks with a capital X!
Get some technical wear bros. Got to EMS or some place like that and collect some sythetic fabrics.
No rash on my ####.
Eric
D Pig rules.................I'd hire that guy in a minute.It's Never Too Late
To Become
What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
Me either. That tech wear stuff is pretty cool.
We are all in this together.
http://www.hay98.com/
The fact that the guy who asked for the proposal knows you and knows your work was what really ticked you off, understandably.
You could almost understand an uneducated HO, raised on those crappy tv shows - when is Taunton Press going to start their own show entitled "It's Harder Than You Think, Dumbazz" ? - might have no idea of difference in quality and price, but it has to be maddening for it to come from a pro -
It's cooler today, maybe you'll feel better - or just take a day off like Manny.
"The fact that the guy who asked for the proposal knows you and knows your work was what really ticked you off, understandably."
Yeah...... I wonder if he thinks Dieselpig is consistently overcharging every house they work on together. It's just carpentry, right....not like it's electrical.
When I've got guys whose work I trust, and I trust them personally, unless there is something I just don't understand on the bill or the quote, I'd be ashamed to dicker. Had a designer come to me once with that attitude....we had a good relationship, she trusted me to give her a fair price, but needed me to clarify why our price was much higher than the other company on a project. Became clear that the other guys missed a big portion of the work. That cleared up, we got the job, no hard feelings either way......would have been different though if she had wanted us to do it for 60%.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Your example, of course, is the right way to do it - nothing wrong with asking for an explanation, or just to explain the difference between another quote.
Either as a contractor or a client, I probably wouldn't trust someone who wouldn't explain the difference, or wouldn't tell me why his is so much higher (or lower) -
And I sure wouldn't trust someone who agreed to reduce his price 60% - how could you trust him with 2 wildly different prices for the same job?
If he agrees to reduce the price, either he was trying to rip you off with the first, isn't competent enough to accurately price a job, or just desperate.
"My sawzall makes a lot of money"
GREAT line!!!
That was priceless.
as for the "in the morning before you even hit the remote start button to warm up your car"
Don't knock it till you try it brother, that was the best 350 bucks I spent on my truck...
"that was the best 350 bucks I spent on my truck..."
well ...
aside from the Dent Wizzard!
hey ... did ya miss me?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
hey, I let the dents build up till I finally had something worth claiming!
So well said. Bravo! I'm printing this for future reference.Quality, Craftsmanship, Detail
Excellent response! Yeah, I used to think, "How hard can framing be?" until I worked with a framer. It's one thing to drive by a house on a pleasant sunny day and see some guys putting up a house and another to be out there day after day in heat and cold and doing the same good quality work in all those varying conditions and working even though you are sore and tired. I did hobby-type DIY work, but as you say, it is a whole different ballgame when time is money and you have to be efficient and get the production out--can't work for an hour or two every other day and maybe work a whole 12 hours on weekends. Take a couple hours to study each problem that arrises. Anyway, my perceptions certainly changed!
Bill,
Thank you for your post. It echos what I've been thinking while reading this post. As someone building (for the most part) ourselves, we too are guilty of wasting time, buying too much (or too little), not always working safely, and I'll even admit to having messed up more than once.
One thing I'd like to emphasize even more than you did. <This place is great>. In the short amount of time I've been here, I have received help that many professionals elsewhere would not be willing to give to someone like me. I am very grateful that people here are willing to help me with something that, so far, has been one of the most rewarding things I've ever done.
Shauna
40BILLH,
not my intent to bash you---------
But before you pat yourself on the back RE: your professional results via DIY effort
To be fair------- please factor into your calculations the time you spend here on breaktime-------gleaning the knowledge, experience and expertise of actual working pro's------so that you can then turn around and DIY----while simultaneously bashing our brothers working in your locale.
Personally--- I don't think that's quite fair.
Really----- I encourage folks to DIY------but I think it's unreasonable to expect US to offer YOU tutorials on a variety of subjects--- and get verbally insulted in return.
but wadda I know?
Stephen
Hi Stephen,
I have spent an enormous amount of time here, ( 3 or 4 years) mostly just reading. I love this place! What I have learned here has made a huge difference for me! Not just in the advice and techniques, but also the perspective that comes along with listening to experienced tradesmen. Sometimes it's just a discussion that get's me busy reading a little bit about something of interest.
I'm a 20 year factory worker, no doubt in my mind I would starve to death in the building trades<G>
I would be a lot farther behind the curve in my DIY ventures if not for the folks at break time!
As for the roofer and hvac guy in my area that you felt I "bashed". They were knuckle heads. Please take note I also spoke well of the guys we did hire who were "real trades men". I recommend them any chance I get.
Distnf's post got under my skin, I answered.
I would still gladly have a cold one with any one of you guys!
If any one here felt "verbally insulted" by my blathering, let me say that certainly was not my intention.
every body get's cranky once and a while, but the folks here are the best!
Bill
A lot of what you said is correct.
So whether you like the word or not, you've got a marketing problem.
Kind of like lawyers ... theree's bums in every profession that give the group a bad name. However, many of us do not have marketing problems ... we get work by referrals, and our schedules are full.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
I know what you are saying, I hear the stories all the time. People get burned often enough. I'm not about to defend the industry as a whole. I can say that my best customers are those who have been burned before.
What I dont understand is why people let themselves get put in a vulnerable situation. Most people dont bother to get off their butts and go look at a guys work or even make a few phone calls.
I have a friend who tried his hand at contracting. He was'nt very good, matter of fact I never saw worse work. I remember he once told me "what other profession can you walk into a strangers house and walk out a half hour later with their life savings?"
I'll do it for 56,800 and you get to frame it anyway
Darnit, you took my answer, 'cepting that I was going to bill $60K, an' get you to PM it for $6k <g> . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Sheeze, I could see him trying to dicker you down to $40k even, but 27?! That's like 30%! That's just rude.
jt8
The reason so many people never get anywhere in life is because when opportunity knocks, they are out in the backyard looking for four-leaf clovers.
-- Walter Percy Chrysler
Would you have been supplying the material? Did it include anything like siding or roofing?
Brian,
Few years ago when I had a small three, sometimes four man framing crew I was at the end of a house and there was a hold up with the next foundation so I went to shake some trees to see what fell out.
I went to see a local builder who is pretty big. HE had several foundations sitting and at least one for over 2 months. We met and talked for about ten minutes before he informed me. " I don't care what you charge. I pay $2.50 a sqft. Period. I pay every week and I'll set up draws. You'll never need to look for work again ."
I told him to go pound sand. His response? " That's ok, SOmeone will come along and do it for that" And you know what? Someone did. Just not me.
Two years later, while I was deployed the first time, the same builder called my house. Left a message that he had gotten my name from a Lumber salesman and that I did nice trimwork. and..................." If I was ready to trim for $15 a door $15 a window and .25 per lft on baseboard............You got it...................I would never have to look for work again"
That time my wife got to tell him to go pound sand.
Some of these A$$monkeys amaze me.
Welcome to my World, only $15 a door is 3 bucks more then the going rate. The problem is the ones that do it for the cut rate, lower the rates for everybody else. Thats why I have such a hard on with the cheap labor that has flooded many parts of this country.
this has nothing to do with the thread
thought u might be interested in these suspenders to go with your other T-shirts
http://www.perrysuspenders.com/novpersus15w.html
1-1/2" Skulls Original Perry Suspenders - 48"pad
DISCONTINUED ITEM
pad
Availability: Usually ships the next business day.
Regular price: $13.95padThis Month's Special: $9.95
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
Pretty cool. Thanks.
I'm looking at the picture and trying to figure out if I can monkey rig a pair to attach to my tool rig.
What do you think?
I was looking at that too. I'm always popping the clips on my suspenders while bending. Sucks they don't make it for a 3" belt. I wore a 2" belt for awhile, but it cuts into your side more.
i started a thread looking for suspenders and Don from Utah posted the url.when i was looking around the site saw those and thought of you.might wabt to hurry and order tho, since they're discountinued.maybe Don could tell you if they'll fit a tool belt, since he uses them.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
Looks to me like it will work perfectly with the tool belt.
Edited 8/3/2005 11:14 pm ET by Luka