I just don’t get this new trend! “Site condo” they call them around here, a way to get around the zoning laws.
A few days ago I helped an HVAC buddy of mine do a central air install on a young guys house near us. He’s in what I call a “yuppie mansion neighborhood”, you know the type; big houses jammed packed with wasted space and sh!tty craftsmanship onto a lot barely bigger than the house. Brand new place, not even a yard yet. We were inside running the power to the unit and doing our work, and I got a good look around and it’s obvious that the builder was stretching the codes to the max: cardboard return ducts, 30g sheet metal everywhere, PVC supply water, only one 20a breaker in the entire panel, 2 x 10 floor joists that were spanned to the max I’m sure because the entire house bounced every time someone farted, no name vinyl windows that didn’t swing out to wash, nail pops everywhere, cheap a55 carpet, no gutters…man, I could list dozens more…vinyl siding, 3 tab crappy shingles…he paid $220k for it and it’s on a .1 acre lot.
Edited 7/10/2003 7:14:35 PM ET by molten
Replies
Selling new production built houses has become no better then the new car market.
What can you afford per month with no attention to quality.
Had one recently wich had a 10 ga wire on a 30 amp breaker supplying an oven. I guess the builder figured no would ever actually use 1 oven much less 2.
I'm loving life repairing these pos houses.
__________________________________________________________________
"What can you afford per month with no attention to quality."
That's where I'm a little confused: around here (SE Mich.) 220 is a little high in price. I bought a 2 y/o simple 1650 sg/f Cape on 1 acre with about 40 trees only 10 miles from this guy, and I paid 163! (2 years ago) The yard was done, the windows had curtains and there was more than one color of paint in the house. The quality of my homes construction far surpasses his house, but his house "looks cool!"
Location, location, and location.... It's the same story everywhere. My neighbor is listed for 1.3 million (18 ac 3500 sq ft), but I don't think the Realtor knew/knows what's next door. LOLPAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
It's not how a house looks that makes it a home.
I never met a tool I didn't like!
You should not insult the quality of new cars like that.
Even the #### ones nowadays are incredibly engineered, insanely reliable, and safer than ever . . . .Steelkilt Lives!
You've got a point: at least all of the car manufacturers are trying to exceed the minimum requiremnts in most cases, instead of just barely "passing code" like most of the builders I see around my area.
Shouldn't have gone there....
My 2 year old American made pickup truck with american made tires developed a flat with only 20,000 miles on them. So I'm on the side of an interstate with 65mph speed limits and the winch to lower the spare doesn't work. So tell me again about the reliability and engineering.... and how safe I was..... The guy who patched the tire said at least 30% of them he see's don't work. Now if that's insanely reliable I'd hate to see what every day run run of the mill reliable is.
Who checks to see if they can actually get the spare out till you need it?
_______________________________________________________If you were arrested for being a quality builder would there be enough evidence to convict you?
Next time dont buy a GM product!
A Rolls Royce with 10 miles on the clock could develop a flat, On the other hand my pickup with 195,000 plus miles on it has never had a flat.. (I visit construction sites all day long)
Further the location you had your flat (by the side of the freeway) really isn't the mfg. fault so it wouldn't have mattered if the winch worked or not.. it was a dangerous location..
Just for the record.. in 195,000 plus miles I've had one failure.. well the water pump started to leak at 165,000 miles so I kept an eye on the coolant level and fixed it over the weekend and It cost me $65.00 for a new one.. It took me less than 45 minutes because the new engines don't require you to remove all of the accessories to replace a water pump anymore.. If I'd been in a hurry and knew what I was doing it would have been a 15 minute job..
I guess I can afford to spend 45 minutes every 165,000 miles..
More McMansions, for more McMillionaires. It's just another symptom of a debilitating disease in the American economy. A huge number of us are much more interested in the way things look, than in the way they really are.
And if we are living in 5500 square feet, with a roof pitched at 18/12, then things look pretty good. (It either doesn't matter, or we don't know any better, that the house has absolutely no quality, and will not outlast its warranty by much.)
And hopefully, the garage will be big enough for both of our huge SUV's. We really need those behemoths, so that we can get from Starbucks to the soccer game on time.
What I can't figure out is this. Over the past twenty years, Americans have (justifiably) gone bonkers over quality in automobiles. The Asian car companies, with quality numbers a bit higher than Detroit's, just about put America out of business as a result -- but we demanded the higher quality, even as we got laid off.
Yet this has not happened in the housing market.
But keep 'em coming. I love making money replacing rotted wood on houses that are less than a decade old. (Almost as much as I love remodeling the good ones that were built in the fifties.)
Amen!!!
Up here in Westchester County, NY the yuppies have a bad case of the gotta-haves. Gotta have a big house. Gotta have 2 stoves. Gotta have a Sub-zero fridge, etc. Gotta have an SUV that's even too big for the military. It goes so far as to gotta have kids.
A lot of people up here have kids just because. Both parents have to work to pay for all of this stuff. They have to hire a nanny for the kids, because heaven forbid they give up any of their time. Most of them don't even know what the kids like, eat, etc.
The McMansions here are just big boxes. Huge colonials with absolutely no character. They can barely afford the stuff on the inside, so the outside suffers. They pay around $1-2 Million for these boxes on 1 acre lots. But their neighbors are twenty feet away.
There is no consideration for true architecture or craftsmanship.
The epidemic has been in full force here in the Boston area for over a decade. I grew up in the McMansion areas, but most were build in the 80's and early 90's, quality was better than the current crop, but not up to standards as far as the prices that were being paid.
A discussion erupted the other day over lunch about these said houses. A guy we work with bought "a million dollar home" a couple years ago. He's correct he did pay just under $1M for it, but as far as I'm concerned her PAID $1M for a $400K home.
Maybe my thinking is warped but when the insurance company insures a house and it's replacement value is like $450K then it is a $450K house from a parts and labor standpoint. Obviously this is a simplified example but it is a hell of a lot closer to a $400K house than $1M.
These houses look nice to the untrained eye but you don't have to look too deep to see corners cut. All you have to do is look at the HVAC design and install. The electrical install etc. Much of the cost cutting is hidden in the walls. A trend I've noticed is nice bathrooms and fixtures downstairs and crap upstairs.
SJ
Know a little about alot and alot about little.
Edited 7/11/2003 8:38:25 AM ET by Steve Joyce
what was the lot of your buddies house worth?
insurance covers replacing the house, not the lot.
there are a lot of things that have to be recouped in a new development, not just the house cost
this is not a defense of crappy houses, just saying there are more things that go unto a new house. and it depends on wether going into an existing infrastructure or creating an infrastructure.bobl Volo Non Voleo
Bobl - completely understand.....I was trying to make a simple point of a not so simple thing. His land is worth about $250k without the house. Either way the concept of "A Million Dollar home".........could use a little clarification for the McMansion owners.
It's funny, people look at some of the smaller homes in my area, probably mine included and think that the people owning them aren't "successful". What a trip!!! My neighbor has this small 2 bedroom bungalow of a house, cute but not what the soccermoms would call their "ideal" place, they probably throw their noses up at it. But he is completely liquid, owns his own shop, makes his own hours and just built a gorgeous home on a quiet lake in NH 100% paid for, no leans.......yeah he isn't successful.
People need perspective thesedays. If it isn't 5 bed 3.5bath with 3 car garage complete with a Volvo, BMW 5 Series & Yukon XL it is CRAP!!!! 5 BRs? Most of these people have 2 kids........do they each have their own "Time Out" room? 3.5Baths.......while I think each being able to crap at the same time has its merits.......
SJ
Know a little about alot and alot about little.
agree
bobl Volo Non Voleo
That's the biggest part I don't get. I know most of these people in this neighborhood were making less than I am but they all had bigger and more expensive houses and cars than me. Sometimes when co-workers come over to visit me, I can see they look down on me for having a small place, like I'm poor or something. They don't see that my credit card balance is zero and I'm ahead 3 payments on my mortgage and both of my cars are paid off, etc. etc. etc.
My wife and I have this discussion all the time. Those people feel that they have to keep up this the "Joneses". Those of us that are ahead on the mortgage, Zero balance on the plastic, etc... Don't have to keep up, Were leading and the others just don't know it.
Since Ive been remodelling my 50 plus year old house wifey and I have been out checking out the new model homes 500K-600K. (2000 sq ft -2500sq ft) I can say that they do look nice. Lots of moldings and color added plus tile ect.
But I will add that the molding are all prefabbed (dont know what the trade term is for it but) the plastic over foam. No real wood on the house. the cabs look nice but coser inspect they have metal drawers screwed directly to the drawer fronts not a dovetail in the bunch.
Rooms are smaller they make them look larger because they put smaller furniture in it. I laid down on a bed in a master bed room and my feet almost hung over the foot of the bed. BTW I only 5'7" long.
The lot size was small and the homes were so close together that you could talk to your neighbor while in the bathroom taking care of business. I watched them build these homes as they are on the way to slim shadys house and when they were stuccoing them they only need one set of scaffolding for both homes about 5' apart (or less ) from each other. But they did look nice but fine homebuilding..no. Ill keep my 50 plus year old home, and put up with the maintenance.
Darkworks: No Guns No Butter squilla and the bling bling.
People measure things differently. The people that measure things via material wealth may be misguided. Plus many of these folks are SOL without two incomes. They are leveraged to the hilt. Most of the cars are leases, and most of the homes are heavily financed. They live on monthly payments.
My neighbor has 6 very average cars that all are paid for and he keeps them running at his shop. He has a nice Harley and as far as I know no debt to speak of. That to me is a truely successful person. When someone owns a $1M home and owns all those cars and toys outright.....you have my respect because you must have done something right, provided they have the right attitude. There are some really cool rich people in the world.
However, the wannabes in the McMansions that cop attitude if you aren't trying to play the game.......they make me laugh and laugh. I will model my life on not being them.
SJKnow a little about alot and alot about little.
What really amazed me was that there was an entire community of about 100 of these crappy built homes all in one spot. Like there's that many screwed up people in my city? And of course the city likes it because the more expensive homes you cram into a small area, the more taxes they receive. I'm almost disgusted by it all.
It's "progress" man.
Damn I'm already this cynical and I'm only 28, I need to drink more.
If I were one of these builders I too would be laughing all the way to the bank. They have a new development right behind me (as in from my fence back) where the guy leveled every tree and fit the most God awful lots around these two tiny culdesacs (sp?). These houses are pure crap......they are so close to the property lines they have no prayer of adding a garage (none have a grage), they'd be lucky to get a permit for a 10x10 shed on the sides. People are now paying into the low $400's for these. I talked to the developer the other day at a hearing for the abutters......he basically said he IS laughing all the way to the bank.
Some of his framing crews are buddies of mine, they say the worksmanship is crap and they wouldn't pay $250k for one. Serious lowest bidder crews etc. I haven't seen a piece of wood or fiber cement siding go up on a new house in town for a decade. No skin off my nose though, my property value is going up from those POS boxes, can't wait for a hurricane. Then again half of those houses will be in my backyard then.
I never relized how much this stuff bothered me.
My rant is over.......I guess.
SJ
Know a little about alot and alot about little.
This isn't limited to McMansions.
A friend of mine sell real estate and says that people want to buy a starter home for $149k rather than buy a 10-20 year old home for the for less. And in the older home they are oftne bigger (not mansion, but a couple of 100 more sq ft), larger lots, more trees, much better construction, etc, etc.
That they look at homes like cars. They don't want the risk of a "used car".
"5 BRs? Most of these people have 2 kids........do they each have their own "Time Out" room? 3.5Baths.......while I think each being able to crap at the same time has its merits......."
Last spring went on the New Home Show tour as there was a house sponsored by a magazine the was being touted for it Arts and Crafts detailing. Anyway it was a $695k McMansion. Have 4 "fireplaces". All of them seal glass gas units. They are really just "pictures" of a fire. And walking up to house you could see shinners all over the trim around the windows from 10 ft away. And the inside was nothing to write home about. I tried the bath fans. They where $19 HD rejects. I have seen kits bikes with playcard "motors" that where not as loud as those fans.
Then I went to another A&C style home in the same development that was $795k plus $100k to finish the basement like the first one. You could immediately see the quality in this one.
But I have no idea why anyone would buy it. Just large wasted spaces. Had 3 bedrooms on the 2nd floor, 2 one one side of large open balcony and one there other side. All 3 had large walkin colsets, there own bath. And each bedroom was as large as my master bedroom and bath. I made the comment to the sales person that it would have been nice to make the bedrooms smaller, a shared bath and then have a common playroom study area.
She said "Oh! no" people are saying that they are not big enough as it is.
I agree with you -- some part of our society seems a little diseased in this regard. I wonder what happened that so many people confuse the appearance of material success with the result of genuine personal accomplishment.
I was puzzling over this aloud with my family recently, bothered by the idea that I got into the trades because of a lifelong love of beauty in the built environment. I've spent a lot of my career trying to figure out how to build thoughtfully and carefully -- how to express true elegance -- timeless beauty, simplicity, durability, graceful utility, enduring personal and social value.
After working to achieve the best possible job for a reasonable price and then have a client tell me "Oh that's too expensive, just go to Home Depot" leaves me wondering why I spent a day of my life trying to create something beautiful for these people.
Someone suggested I print another set of business cards for these folks that says "American Dream Construction -- Building Cr*p So You Can Have More Of It."
What I did finally do was stop taking those jobs. I don't know how long that luxury will last, but when it runs out there should be plenty of McMansions to demo. I'll enjoy that almost as much as rebuilding something beautiful in their place.
DRC
what you are all really doing is second guessing another persons choices..
OK I'll join you..
Day in and day out I see these "townhouses" that sell in the $150,000 range.. you know the type I'm talking about 4-10 units in a row with driveway, entry door and maybe a small window overlooking a postage stamp lawn.
plastic siding, plastic windows and cheap,cheap, cheap..
To me those are the future getto's
growing up next to your neighbor in an apartment size home with very little potential for appreciation, that will allow you to step up to a Mc Mansion..
At least with Mc Mansions they stand a chance of appreciation from a neighborhood becoming diserable..
there is practically no chance with the "townhouses"
The same phenomenon happens out here in the rural west with modular housing. The modular manufacturer arranges incredible financing in a "land - home" package. The financing is incredible in only one area: 5% down. The rest of the loan is more or less at predator rates and fees.
I've seen several that have had the 3 tabs blow off in six months. Same with the plastic skirting that is supposed to keep the wind out from under the house. The foreclosure rate is high, of course, because a large percentage of the buyers should be buying an existing home in town that would likely cost $50k to $80k (at this time in our town). BUT, they want "new" and so they pay interest rates they shouldn't accept for crap they shouldn't buy and bind themselves to payments they really can't afford.
We recently had (I'm a real estate broker) a couple buy 40 acres (for $45,000). They put in a road, well, power, phone, steel shop building, and a three car attached garage: attached to a modular they paid $102k for BEFORE IT WAS BROUGHT TO THE SITE! Didn't include foundation, delivery or anything. They couldn't understand it when I said I didn't think the place was worth $290k! (It might be worth $190k???) They're trying to sell because (she says) "these people here are just not what we are used to: they are so backward". There place has been for sale for over a year and I predict it will still be for sale a year from now. (This is no isolated instance!)
I'm not sure this is an improvement over trailer homes! At least they could be bought for $25k!
But we do get some McMansions, too. Both Y2k and the stock run of the late 90s brought a trickle of people out here who spent a bundle on a custom home. Lots of them are for sale now.
My apologies for saying so to those of you who have one, but I just don't understand the 3,000 sqr foot and up thing at all. I can't see any benefit but prestige. IMO it's a high price to pay to assuage insecurities...
Quality is a whole nutha animal than size. And living within your means is foreign to an incredble number of Americans.
Dammit! I was ranting again!!!Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.