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I’m building a cedar gate between two houses 6′ high with a concave top and the two houses are 38″ apart. With a 4×4 on both sides that leaves me with 31″ for the gate width.
How much clearance should I leave on either side of the gate between the posts?
When making a Z brace for the gate, should the angled portion of the brace point from the hinge side top to the bottom latch side or the top latch side pointing down to the bottom hinge side, and also should the top and bottom horizontal braces be spaced evenly between the top and bottom of gate? (brace will be 2×4’s on flat.) Any thoughts on the dip distance of the concave at the center?
Thanks
Tony
Replies
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Tony,
If you are doing a Z brace, then make it a Z, not a backwards Z!
I'd make the door 1/2 to 3/4" smaller than the opening. That should give you room for hinges, a little play, and room for eventual sagging, which may happen with a heavy door.
I've had good luck making lighter gates and instead of a Z brace, just cut triangles for the 4 corners, glue and screw them, they hold real well and look better IMO. Depends on what you're trying to do I guess. Of course the Z brace is traditional if you want that look, go for it.
If you're asking about how to make the concave design, I usually make a big compass out of a couple 1x1's, drill a hole in each end, stick a pencil in one and a nail in the other, then play with the design by widening or narrowing the "compass" to get a desirable arc. ON smaller stuff I use garbage can lids or whatever has the right radius.
You can lay the door on the ground and make a string compass too.
Have fun,
MD
*My opinion is the bottom of the Z should butt against the hinge side. But I've argued this before.1/2" spacing is just fine. I actually build the gate in place between the posts. Just tack on a strip of 1/2" plywood on each post (if they're wood) and stick frame it in place, tacking the gate 2x4's to the plywood spacers with screws. Put on the fence boards, gate hardware, remove "tack" screws and voila... A built in place gate. Fits perfect and you don't have to wrestle with it to hang it.
*Tony-I thought you were building curved staircases,now you're putting a gate on them?I normally put the diagonal brace to the top hinge.You can also install a simple screen door diagonal rod with a turnbuckle,if the gate is not too large,which will eliminate sag with age.(I feel a joke coming) Bob
*Tony, The diagonal brace should ALWAYS go from the bottom of the hinge side to the top of the latch side, this will transfer the downward sag to the supported (hinge) side. On the other hand, a cable and turnbuckle should go from the top of the hinge side to the bottom of the latch side, and actually 'draw up' the sag.Cheers, William
*Mike williams and wm.get my vote .. .and i like the idea of building it in place..especially for one that small..build in a bevel also for clearance...what will you do for the latch mechanism ?
*I say the brace goes from hign on hinge side to low on latch side. This way the brace is under tension. A brace is strong enough to work either way but unter compression, for the gate to be able to sag, it has to push the corners apart. For the gate to sag with the brace under tension, it would have to pull the corners together tighter (which can't happen if they're already tight).Truth is either one will be adequate but I always liked high on the hinge side better.
*Ryan gets the prize for the force diagram...... Ya' wanna' make sure about a decent tension connection though.... Sam
*tension will work against the top hinge...compression will work against the bottom hinge.... your choice...mine is the compression... due to the nature of wood to wood connections...
*Mike, The forces on the hinges will be the same, regardless of the brace.... Tension top, compresson bottom.....But tension connections in wood... Suck.... Make the thing outta' of a piece of plywood and ya' can fuggedaboutit all together... 'Course is may not look so appealing but hey? I never promised a rose garden....Sam
*I can't believe this is even a discussion with diffences.It is only correct to run the "Z" down to the bottom hinge.Many gates are built with verticle boards over the Z brace. Due to wood being what it is, the tendancy to sag will be greatest further from the hinge. The Z brace will be at the top of the latch side to support the weight there. Reversing the Z brace would do nothing good for this situation. It is essentially the angled portion of the brace that prevents the downward movement of the panels while the horizontal portions of the brace primarily tie the boards together.Furthermore, the hinges on the post provide the final part of the formula. The hinge side is fixed and the downward force on the latch side of the gate is transfered through the cross brace of the Z and into the sationary hinge side.Anything else would be incorrect usage of the Z brace in this or similar cases.Pete
*Latch side top, hinge side bottom, in compression. If you run it the other way you are relying on the fasteners to keep the brace tight. With all of the abuse gates take if you put the brace in tension they will sag eventually, IMHO.BTW I usually make my gate 1/4" or so out of square. Seems to come out about right when the gate is hung.Just my opinion.Scott
*Pro,You never know when you'll have more little ones running around the house. Those gates come in handy! Lots going on, its summer in New York and we all know that winter is a long season. The curved staircase is a 4 credit hour course.To Everyone,I once discussed building gates with a fence company owner and he pointed out that a properly installed gate should have galvanized metal posts instead of 4x4's because they eventually twist and warp. Also the gate should be built on a frame of galvanized metal say 1" or 1 1/4" pipe with each board attached to the metal frame, also to prevent sagging. What is your thoughts on this? To me it sounds logical but it makes a nice wood fence look kind of phoney. Plus you have to box in all the metal to cover up the silver pipe.So I take it that if your inside facing the gate frame the brace should be true "Z" like the letter (hinges on the left) not a backwards Z. What about the spacing on the top and bottom?Tony
*tony.. sounds good to me..your fence builder is a production guy.. he does what he has to do to crank 'em out.. his method works for him..>in custom work.. we spend a lot of time selecting the posts for grain and warp.. if i need 2 i'll go to the lumber yard and pick 3 .. the best i can find...then i'll sticker them in my garage or under cover someplace...when it's time to install , i use the best 2 of 3..even leaving them for a long weekend laid straight and loose.. they'll start drying out and assuming their final shape..if they don't twist at the start.. chances are good they will not twist ever...you have to read the wood and try and figure what it wants to do...we run into the same thing with rail posts.. PT SYP loves to twist and bend.. you gotta look for the ones who don't or install them so the twist gets buried and the straight is what the rail fastens to...your cedar post are much more stable than SYP PT.. so better chances of success..b but hey, whadda i no ?
*Tony,Building the braace like a "true Z" and notr a backwards one???Wouldn't that make a difference by which side of the gate is hinged?Simply put, the angle of the Z brace should point down towards the bottom hinge on either side of the gate.Pete
*Pete, you took the words right out of my keyboard...The only reason I took a gander at this thread is I couldn't imagine why a question like this would get over a dozen replies.I guess we all do work differently...for what it's worth, all my gates get built with the brace in compression. Top of the latch side to the bottom of the hinge side.Advice like that has got to be worth at least 10,000 Turkish Lira...maybe even more?
*Don't most gates sag because the top hinge is pulling out or the supporting post is leaning?If you're really worried about a gate turning non-square and binding, then consider this:If the diagonal brace is installed so as to be under compression (top latch side to bottom hinge side), then the top member is under tension. If the brace is under tension (top hinge side to bottom latch side), then the top member is under compression. Seems pretty much 50/50 to me unless someone can provide a more thorough analysis involving the other members.Me? I'd bury the post deeper or use longer screws on the top hinge. Maybe put spikes on the top of the gate to keep the kids from riding it. :)
*Tony:William is correct. I'm with Mongo...I'm supprised at the number of different answers to this classic "Z" design. You can take fuller advantage of compression by cutting some notches in the rails to receive points cut at each end of the diagonal brace. In other words the top rail has a "V" shaped notch on its lower edge, near the latch, to accept a point on the diagional brace. The lower rail has a notch on its upper edge ,near the hinge, to receive the point on the lower end of the brace. 90 degree notches and points are usually the simplest. The brace "locks" into the rails and the weight of the gate pushes this all toghther. Sagging posts are a different story. I hope this makes sense.
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I'm building a cedar gate between two houses 6' high with a concave top and the two houses are 38" apart. With a 4x4 on both sides that leaves me with 31" for the gate width.
How much clearance should I leave on either side of the gate between the posts?
When making a Z brace for the gate, should the angled portion of the brace point from the hinge side top to the bottom latch side or the top latch side pointing down to the bottom hinge side, and also should the top and bottom horizontal braces be spaced evenly between the top and bottom of gate? (brace will be 2x4's on flat.) Any thoughts on the dip distance of the concave at the center?
Thanks
Tony