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Zero Heat in winter for mountain house?

Kimball_house | Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on October 29, 2008 07:43am

I have a house on Mt. Hood, OR at 4000 feet. It is a 20 year old, well-built and insulated 4 bdrm house that is used sporadically. It has electric fan heaters, but mostly runs on wood heat when it is occupied in the winter. I am trying to figure out if we can reduce the heat bill to zero when it is unoccupied. Or is this foolish?

We installed specialty thermometers that actually register to 35oF from Grainger, but we still have heat bills of $700/yr. We turn off the hot water heater, drain the pipes with gate valves in the sub-basement, and try and set the thermostats to keep the heat just above freezing.

My thought was that we should be able to turn all the heat off if we can remove the water from the pipes and the hot water heater. One year my Dad did an experiment to drain the pipes (copper) and turn off the heat entirely, but that resulted in a split pipe in a shower and quite a mess. Not sure how adequately he verified the pipes were truly drained. And the hot water heater cannot be simply drained.

What do readers think about a hot water heater that can be drained or one with a vacation setting? Could one truly drain all the water from the pipes using a low pressure, high volume air compressor? Is this all a bad idea?

Neighbors have installed propane tanks and switched to forced air heaters, but this strikes me as a lot of trouble that would merely reduce, but still not eliminate, spend for an unused house.

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  1. MHolladay | Oct 29, 2008 11:19am | #1

    Kimball,

    It is possible to drain the plumbing in a house that will be unheated for the winter. The routine is a pain, but it's doable.  Obviously, it helps if:

    1.  You installed the plumbing, so you know for a fact that every single horizontal pipe run is sloped back to the low point (basement or crawl).

    2.  You left a valve to act as an air inlet at the highest point of the plumbing.

    3.  You remember to put antifreeze or windshield-washer fluid in the toilet traps, bath traps, and shower traps, and you remember to disassemble all the sink traps.

    Most people get one or two split pipes the first time they try it.  Then they either improve the plumbing so it doesn't trap water, or they give up and go back to heating the house because the entire routine is such a pain.



    Edited 10/29/2008 4:20 am ET by MHolladay

  2. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Oct 29, 2008 11:59am | #2

    One option is heat tapes; thermostatically controlled eletrical cords which are wrapped around pipes that cannot be drained in situations like yours. 

    Heat tapes are also used on active exposed pipes such as water lines which connect to mobil homes. 

    In both cases, the heat tapes can also be further insulated, externally, to help keep the energy they draw to a minimum.

  3. Piffin | Oct 29, 2008 01:06pm | #3

    This is often done here - we have a lot of sumer only homes.

    We start when plumbing is installed by making sure all supply lines have a pitch to gravity drain.

    But there are some there a compressor is used to purge the lines.

    There is more to it though. Most sink and shower fixtures get the valve stems pulled to be sure no water is trapped there. All traps get RV antifreeze. The dishwasher and washing machine have a quart of same in bottom and then run the pump enough to get the antifeeze into it replacing the water retained there.
    Toilets get flushed almost dry and the antifreeze added.
    You might have a trap in the cellar floor someplace too.

    But I would not shut it all the way down if it only costs you a grand or less to heat.
    typical small house here takes $200 plumber bill to shut it off and $200 again to turn it back on again.
    And there are other bad things that happen to a house when totally cooled. Shrinkage of materials, water condensing on walls and other surfaces doing damage, some caulks and paints can't take the extremes and crack or flake. It is not an uncommon thing for people here who try your experiement the first time to end up with 3-4 thousand dollars worth of repairs in the spring.

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
    Excellence is its own reward!

  4. Pelipeth | Oct 29, 2008 01:19pm | #4

    What's the house worth, $700 is chump change to heat for the winter. Some really negative things can happen to a building, which is lived in, when not heated at all. Most builders I know will NOT warranty their product if it is not heated to 45-50* in the winter. Do the math if you heat for 5 mos. thats under $5.oo per day. Maybe your house is not worth taking care of properly.

  5. Marson | Oct 29, 2008 01:40pm | #5

    Compressed air can be used to blow water out of lines, though like someone else said, you are likely to miss some spots your first winter.

    I worked at a place that shut buildings down for the winter, and it was pretty hard on some things. Pretty much destroys vinyl flooring, if it has any seams. Also saw a lot of sheetrock cracking from thermal contraction.

  6. Abm | Oct 29, 2008 02:37pm | #6

    I do a lot of these every year and am currently in the midst of trying to get finished up for the season right now.

     

    What we do is install three valves at the water heater to function as a bypass.

    Shut off the water heater and drain.

    Remove any softeners and or heads from them.

    Drain what water will go on it's own and then blow out the rest with compressed air.

    Hook up at the well tank and pump -50 anti-freeze through the whole system with the bypass in operation at the water heater to prevent filling the tank.

    Go through the entire house and run each faucet until anti freeze runs out each hot and cold valve, previous to this I flush each toilet and shut off the stop... at this point we turn on each toilet valve and fill the tank to mix with any remaining water and then shut off stop valve and flush to run the anti-freeze through the trap.

    Start any dishwashers on the rinse cycle to run anti-freeze into the solenoid and also so that it pumps through the pump in the bottom.

    Turn the clothes washer on a wash cycle and let it begin to fill while switching through a cold temp mode and also a hot temp setting so that it runs through both sides of that valve (we then shut it off as soon as this is done and some anti-freeze is in the bottom). I then turn the washer to a spin cycle and let it pump through the pump in the bottom and into the trap.

    Make sure that any ice makers on the fridge has been disconnected and solenoid pulled then pump anti-freeze up though the main supply line.

    Run some out through the lines going to any faucets / exterior lines leading other places.

    Make sure that any lines running to humidifiers on furnaces etc. are disconnected and pump through the supplys for them as well, sometimes we have to install a valve at the end of these lines and I have found toilet stops to work well in this application.

     

    All in all it just takes a little time and being very particular to detail. The anti-freeze can be blown back out of the system either in the fall or in the spring. We usually leave it in the lines for the winter and then blow from the highest point back out through the tank drain and into a bucket to be reused. I generally save what I can and mix it equally with new antifreeze the next year, checking for freeze point of the old before and after mixing it with the new stuff. If it's too diluted we don't reuse it, generally this isn't a problem though.

     

    After winterizing everything I like to leave the heat on a low setting, less than 70 degrees, for about a day to remove any excess moisture before closing everything up and shutting off the furnaces.

     

    The average house (2 story with three bathrooms, one washer and dryer set, two furnaces, 2 hot water heaters, etc.) will take me less than half a day to do with one helper just keeping my pump going (dumping anti-freze) and might require 25-50 gallons on average. I'd say the average cost of materials is in the 150-200 dollar range, much less than running heat through the winters here (Northern Michigan).

  7. junkhound | Oct 29, 2008 06:54pm | #7

    Have a cabin near St. Helens, never heated when away.

    Installed ll pipes myself, one common outside drain.

    Remember to throw a softball in the toilet and sinksalong with a handfull of salt to avoid freeze bursts of traps.

    The softball keeps the mice out if you are gone so long the trap dries out!!

  8. frenchy | Oct 29, 2008 08:44pm | #8

    Draining indoor plumbing is realtively simple..  find the lowest accessable point in the plumbing and put in a female air hose end.. (make sure it's a brass one and not steel) A little electric compressor is fine.  You don't need a lot of pressure or volume just enough to move water..  

      Shut off the water and  open all the faucets, pull the hose end out allowing standing water to drain.. hook a compressor to the air hose end using a double male fitting.  then go up and shut off the faucets one by one ending the furthest away from the water inlet..   As you shut off the last faucet unhook the compressor so excess pressure doesn't build up..

      Now walk thru the house and dump some RV antifreeze in each drain.  Only thing left to do is plug in the heat tape wrapped around the stub of the water drain to ensure that doesn't freeze..

     I use the same approach on my outside sprinklers and It sometimes takes me a whole 30 minutes to drain about 40 sprinkler heads. I simply don't understand why I was quoted $310.00 to winterize my system. 

     

    1. Abm | Oct 29, 2008 10:11pm | #9

      Under ideal circumstances the method you have stated will work fine. The problems that I see on a regular basis in the spring with houses winterized this way is that over time things settle and shift or are repaired without regard to slope for drainage.

      From field experience I can say that as air is blown through the system it removes almost all of the water but some (a very small amount) is pushed to the outside area of the piping. When you take the pressure off it tends to run back to any low spot in the pipe. This is where the breakage will occur and at times it's almost impossible to get to (like in a very shallow crawl space) or will require the removal of drywall and a repaint of the room when fixed.

      Almost all of the houses that we do have been picked up after something like this has happened at least once. The only way that I can gaurantee no problems is through the use of anti-freeze. I understand that it's much cheaper to do it with just air unless there is a problem, once you reach the point of having someone else do repair work and painting the cost of the anti-freeze becomes irrelevant.

      1. frenchy | Oct 29, 2008 10:32pm | #10

        Freezing doesn't cause a problem with water until the amount of water trapped is enough to fill a line.. as long as water can freeze without expanding past the point of rupture there is no problem.. By using compressed air to blow out the water and chasing it to the end of the pipe rather than starting at the end and shutting off as you go you're pretty sure to reduce the water left behind  to below a pipe full.

         To be extra sure you could just wait let any water flow back to wherever it wants to and then repressurize the system.. This time you start from the furthest away faucet and open it up.. if no water comes out you can be pretty sure you've gotten all the water but double check each faucet working back towards the start

          (in effect double checking your work)..

        1. Abm | Oct 29, 2008 10:43pm | #11

          I agree with your ideology and also agree that a small amount of water left in the lines doesn't pose any risk. My problem is that we have so many houses to do in a very limited timeframe, and almost all of them have been added onto or otherwise altered from ideal conditions over the years, that it makes better sense for me to just do the job in a manner which reduces the risk factor the greatest amount.

        2. Piffin | Oct 29, 2008 11:31pm | #12

          Myself and my plumbers could tell stories all day long of homes ruined by your approach and assumptions. As little as a quart of water in a section with elbows can split your pipes wide open. There is no way to qualify your statement "as long as water can freeze without expanding past the point of rupture there is no problem." 

           

          Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          1. frenchy | Oct 30, 2008 04:00pm | #14

            You understate the problem actually.. it doesn't even  take a quart, it takes less than a 1/2 a pint. In the right location where a tube is filled and the water freezes hard that almost certainly will split the plumbing when water is turned back on again in the spring..

              However, I grew up on on lake where that approach was the norm.  (winter shut off of water systems)..  this lake was originally populated by cabins, uninsulated cabins. Come holloween that was the normal tradition.. winterize and plumbers came by at the appointed time and pressurized plumbing forcing water out the taps untill they are dry.. Air compressors were big bulky things back then and often towed behind the plumbers panel truck. Back then it cost $20.00 for a plumber to blow out your system but included in that $20.00 was a guarantee that if water was left behind and caused the pipes to split he had to repair the plumbing for free.

              $20.00 was a lot back then .. a New Chevy cost less than $2000.  I think dad was earning $80.00 a week.   I do know our first house cost under $3000.00  So an hour of a plumbers time at $20.00 was probably more expensive than a lawyer or Doctor earned..

              As I've said it gets to 40 below around here so if the water in my sprinkler system frooze I'd be digging up my system every spring for repairs.. The same air compressor I used to build this place Is what I use to blow the system out.. .  You can see the water turn to spray turn to mist and eventually dry. zone by zone, sprinkler head by sprinkler head..   When the last sprinkler head is blowing nothing but air I shut off the zones, let the air compressor cool down and then double check going thru each zone and watching each sprinkler head for any sign of misting indicating remaining water..

              This is the same procedure used by countless sprinkler companies. The differance is they use larger compressors because they may have to blow out acres in a golf course or on some of these multi acre lots common around here..

          2. DickRussell | Oct 30, 2008 05:55pm | #15

            In my first summer camp, with plumbing all exposed underneath (no crawl space skirt), toward the end of October we'd shut down. The 10-gallon electric water heater was near the inlet from the pump, and there was a fitting for a small pump. After draining as best as it would on its own, I'd close all the faucets, then attach a tire pump and pump like mad for 10 minutes or so to pressurize to 15-20 psi, then open each faucet one at a time (there were two). That water heater volume would blast out a tremendous volume in short time, entraining any liquid water lingering in the pipes. I'd repeat once and call it done. Never a problem until the cold arrived with a breeze behind it two days before I did.Whether or not blowing out the lines will satisfy the OP really depends on his particular plumbing arrangement and if he knows for sure that draining and blowing can't miss significant low points.

  9. Clewless1 | Oct 30, 2008 02:27pm | #13

    My inlaws have been doing this on Twin Lakes Northern Idaho for a couple of decades. People say not heating a house can be hard on it. But they've been doing the winterize routine for a while now ... they fly south for the winter, so it sits 5-6 months every year.

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